330/12 Intonation problem

[strat68]

I recently purchased a 330/12 that had been in the store for a while (2011 model). Although the strings are dead on in tune open or at the 12th fret (harmonics too) as one plays up the neck from the nut the strings go out of tune. The third fret seems to be the worst. It is audibly and visually (tuner) sharp. I have been playing 6 strings for 40+ years and this is the first time I have ever encountered this.

So, what't the most likely cause? The store offers free setup for new guitars and it's going in next week. I just wanted to get a head start on the problem.

Thanks!

[jdogric12]

Some questions. Please answer them all. I hate it when people just answer one.

Are you using a wound or plain G fundamental?

Are you using a wound or plain A octave?

How straight is the neck?

Just to be clear, the pitch of each string fretted at 12 matches its 12th fret harmonic? For all 12 strings?

Do the truss rods have any tension on them?

Do you have the proper tool (long handled straight hex nut driver) to adjust the truss rods?

[Clint]

One more question. Are those the original strings? Sometimes older strings just go wonky.

[iiipopes]

In addition to all the above, if the third fret is pulling sharp, it may be that the nut slot is too high. The nut slots are critical in depth: high enough to make sure it does not buzz, low enough that the open chords do not pull sharp.

New strings are essential to a good setup.

[strat68]

I just got the guitar back. The nut was too high and they adjusted the neck. NOW it sounds great.

[strat68]

A follow up. Although the intonation is much improved the G and B string are still a off. If you tune either pair of string when open they are out of tune starting at the second fret. Do I need a 12 string bridge or more filing down of the nut? I'm probably going to take it to a different guitar tech this time. The one where I bought the guitar I've found to be hit or miss. Especially after this episode.

[jdogric12]

Answers to my original questions would help me answer your new questions.

[iiipopes]

Answers to my original questions would help me answer your new questions.

Yes. We need answers. We can't solve problems in a vacuum.

[bowser2533]

Had the same type of problem with my 360/12 V64 I recently purchased. The guy had put a set of new strings on it. It was horrible all over the neck, but the guitar sounded great. Not sure what brand he used. First thing I did was remove those strings and put a set of Thomisik Inveld flats on it. Then adjust the truss rods and got the neck as straight as possible then set the intonation. It was like night and day. I even left the 6 saddle bridge on it. It plays perfect up and down the neck. Also dont forget to set your bridge height. Bring it down till the strings fret out, then bring it up a turn at a time until you get em so they dont buzz. I have two 360/12s and Ive never had any luck with wound strings on them. Try the TI flatwounds. I bet you with these strings and a good set up that problem will go away for good. Gary

[theonemanband]

Hi, I can only relate to you my experiences with my 620-12 that plays and intones perfectly all, the way across and up the neck!!

I have upgraded to the twelve saddle bridge; a MUST for perfect intonation], also i have replaced the "R" tailpiece with a
vintage trapeze tailpiece.....(this is much easier for re-stringing)!!
I play Rickenbacker (shop stock) nickel wound strings 10-47's, wound fundamental 3rd (G) with wound octave 5th (A) and go for a much lighter fundamental 6th (.42 instead of .47).

Carefully following instructions from forum help and online guides, I fitted the upgrade parts and did the adjustments and setups myself AND got a real result!!

My 620-12 now plays beautifully;................. I truly hope you get your guitar sorted as you would want it. These guitars are beautiful iconic instruments and need to be set up properly and cherished.................just like a well tuned Ferrari would be.

Cheers............Brian

[sys700]

In the 60's, Rickenbacker used 6-saddle bridges on their 12-strings, but they modified one saddle (the D string) to eliminate intonation issues by making a zig-zag cut in it so that it acted like 2 saddles. With this saddle designed the way it was, I'm able to get near perfect intonation on my two vintage 12-strings. Rickenbacker seem to have eliminated that practice by the early 80's, likely to save time and cost.

Of course you can install a 12-saddle bridge on your guitar, but the saddles are made of different material than standard saddles, and the precise intonation and different material affects the sound. I owned a 60's 12-string that had the 12-saddle bridge on it, and I found it rattled more than a standard 6-saddle bridge and didn't sound as nice. The saddle metal seemed way softer, likely made out of aluminum?

You will never get perfect intonation on a Rick 12-string with a 6-saddle bridge, but I love the sound of notes slightly beating for a thicker, fuller, more jangly sound. In my experience I've noticed that a lot of 12-string intonation issues are simply due to bad strings or even tuners.

[iiipopes]

In the 60's, Rickenbacker used 6-saddle bridges on their 12-strings, but they modified one saddle (the D string) to eliminate intonation issues by making a zig-zag cut in it so that it acted like 2 saddles. With this saddle designed the way it was, I'm able to get near perfect intonation on my two vintage 12-strings. Rickenbacker seem to have eliminated that practice by the early 80's, likely to save time and cost.

Of course you can install a 12-saddle bridge on your guitar, but the saddles are made of different material than standard saddles, and the precise intonation and different material affects the sound. I owned a 60's 12-string that had the 12-saddle bridge on it, and I found it rattled more than a standard 6-saddle bridge and didn't sound as nice. The saddle metal seemed way softer, likely made out of aluminum?

You will never get perfect intonation on a Rick 12-string with a 6-saddle bridge, but I love the sound of notes slightly beating for a thicker, fuller, more jangly sound. In my experience I've noticed that a lot of 12-string intonation issues are simply due to bad strings or even tuners.

Part of the issue is the change in strings from the old Maxima flatwounds. RIC has never done anything just to save money. Newer manufactured strings have different core-to-wrap ratios, and intonate differently. My 1981 360-12 WB ckbd FG had the offset D saddle. It would not intonate properly with modern strings. I ended up purchasing a couple of saddle blanks and making a straight saddle for the D pair, because with the strings I use it intonates better.

That leaves the low E pair, being two wound strings with different core sizes, therefore different core stretch and requiring different compensation to intonate properly. Taking a cue from the old D saddle, I took one of the saddle blanks and filed it offset so the unison low E intonates off the back edge of the saddle and the octave string intonates off the front edge of the saddle. Problem solved. Solid intonation on that low E pair all the way up the neck with a 6-saddle bridge.

And I still have my original "real" Kluson tuners. One B tuner is a little loose, but everything holds very well indeed. The last thing I did to secure consistent intonation was to purchase a set of very thin stamped-nickel mandolin tuner bushings from Stew-Mac, trim the shoulders so they would fit the headstock slots, and install them so the posts of the horizontal tuners would not bind.

[sys700]

One of my 12-strings is set up with flatwound strings from all different manufacturers. Haven't found one complete set of flatwounds yet that I like (or trust putting on my guitar). I do like the Rick compressed rounds though, particularly the older versions. They seem to intonate well on my vintage guitars.

[strat68]

Just saw the new posts. I've finally found a happy compromise. The G is the biggest offender so I tune it so when fingering at the 2nd fret it's in tune the way I like it. I've also stopped using the electronic tuner for all the strings. I get a much better result by getting the low E correct and tuning by ear the rest of the way.

[iiipopes]

Just saw the new posts. I've finally found a happy compromise. The G is the biggest offender so I tune it so when fingering at the 2nd fret it's in tune the way I like it. I've also stopped using the electronic tuner for all the strings. I get a much better result by getting the low E correct and tuning by ear the rest of the way.

I think if you use a wound unison G string and have the nut looked at, you can get much closer in tuning without having to compromise.