John Fogarty 325

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John Fogarty 325

Postby (Ric_MEL) » Wed May 04, 2011 9:48 pm

I'm sure this is common knowledge on the Forum..

so: Was the 325FG that John has in this video.. a Rose-Morris model ? .. cause it has an 'f" hole..

I didn't realize Rose-Morris stocked this model... thought it was just 335's and 345's . and the 330/12..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAVhKjsImeI

and then he added a Bigsby ?

pretty cool !
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (deaconblues) » Wed May 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Probably an American model.

Virtually all 325s came with f-holes, right up until the late '70s or early '80s I believe.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (collin) » Wed May 04, 2011 10:31 pm

dpowell wrote:Probably an American model.

Virtually all 325s came with f-holes, right up until the late '70s or early '80s I believe.



+1

American model, I'm sure.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (iiipopes) » Thu May 05, 2011 9:22 am

My 320 does has neither a "cat's-eye" nor an "f-hole."
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (trosse) » Fri May 06, 2011 2:07 am

All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models - and that means only that they - just like all other genuine Rickenbackers in - are build in California, USA - but with some details added with particularly appeal to British and European players (in the 60s...).

Rose Morris Rickenbackers had different model numbering... And the 325 was called "1966" and a 330 was named "1997" - which obviously had nothing to do with the year of manufacturing.

The Rose Morris line was introduced in 1964 (the year... :D ) and they were all "square-bodies" with F-holes ()no new style 360s).

An original Rose Morris "1966" (325 with an F-hole) from mid 60's is worth about £ 20,000...

PS: Johns family name is Fogerty... not with an a :D
Last edited by trosse on Fri May 06, 2011 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (gellkeller) » Fri May 06, 2011 2:14 am

trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose Morris models ...


Not if it's an S model.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (analogpackrat) » Fri May 06, 2011 12:59 pm

Like gellkeller said... My 1972 360S-12 (that's three six zero S, not O S) is a new style 360 with f-hole. It's pictured in my avatar and is in the registry along with a few other S models. I don't believe this guitar ever left the state of California.
If it is to be, it is up to me.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (Matt Clark) » Fri May 06, 2011 2:39 pm

trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models - and that means only that they - just like all other genuine Rickenbackers - are build in California, USA - but with some details added with particularly appeal to British and European players (in the 60s...).


OK, I had a 1964 310 fireglo with an f-hole, what Rose Morris model was that, as I have never heard of it?

And. should I hang myself now for selling it back in the 80s if a 325 is worth 20k-ish?
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (trosse) » Sat May 07, 2011 12:04 pm

Matt Clark wrote:
trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models - and that means only that they - just like all other genuine Rickenbackers - are build in California, USA - but with some details added with particularly appeal to British and European players (in the 60s...).


OK, I had a 1964 310 fireglo with an f-hole, what Rose Morris model was that, as I have never heard of it?

And. should I hang myself now for selling it back in the 80s if a 325 is worth 20k-ish?


Hmmm I'm not sure... the informations come from an article in "Guitar and Bass magazine", Vol. 18 No. 9, October 2007. The article is on page 84 and written by Phil Harris who hires out vintage guitars for studio use. He's got several Rickenbackers of which three is pictured in the article: 1965 Rickenbacker 335S/1997, 1967 Rickenbacker 325S/1966, and 1967 Rickenbacker 375. There's also a 4001 bass from 1971 belonging to Phils brother Mo...
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (deaconblues) » Sat May 07, 2011 1:25 pm

trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models


Not true. US-made 310s and 320s and the aforementioned S models had f-holes too.

And an RM 325 is called a 1996, not a 1966...
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (trosse) » Sun May 08, 2011 4:00 am

dpowell wrote:
trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models


Not true. US-made 310s and 320s and the aforementioned S models had f-holes too.

And an RM 325 is called a 1996, not a 1966...


As I said: I'm quoting an article - and it's called 1966 in the article - but you are right anyway - the 325 was actually numbered 1996 with an Accent Vibrato on.

There's no such thing as a non-US-made Rickenbacker. All Rickenbackers were and are still made in the USA. Rose, Morris Rickenbackers are US Ricks with small design changes on special request - there is no exclusive feature (except the 12 styring with a bound body which had an un-bound neck)- and Rose, Morris (written like that...) was just a musical merchandise company that had their head quarter in 85 Paul Street, London, E.C.2. Many other musical instrument merchandise companies also distributed Rickenbackers in Europe - but Rose, Morris was the first. Rose, Morris never ordered the F-holes - but they considered a great idea due to the popularity of Gibson and Gretsch in Europe - these days.

The first order for Britain was completed in December 1963 and shipped to England from USA in January 1964. Originaly there were four Rose, Morris guitar models and one bass (There were 40 USA home market Rickenbacker models).

Due to Rickenbacker factory records no jetglo Rose, Morris-style Ricks ever made it to Europe.

Fireglo and Autumglo were theee export finishes even Rose, Morris is known to have ordered a Fiesta Red Rick. None of the Rose, Morris guitars had Rick-O-Sound. According to the litterature (Richard R. Smith, "Rickenbacker", 1987) the S was added to the model number only to state it was a Special order. So all Rickenmbackers with an S in the model number is Rose, Morris guitars and build in the USA for export to Europe.

Well... and now I think I'm going to play a little guitar... My 360 1997 (the year... :D )
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (collin) » Sun May 08, 2011 10:47 pm

trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models - and that means only that they - just like all other genuine Rickenbackers in - are build in California, USA - but with some details added with particularly appeal to British and European players (in the 60s...).



I think you missed our point, Troels.

Of course Rics are all made in the US
Of course the Rose Morris models have different names-----this is all widely known information, especially here.

What we're saying (to bring it back to point) is that John Fogarty's 325 is a standard American Market Rickenbacker 325, and not a Rose Morris.

He never bought it in the UK---Rose Morris ltd never touched the guitar....it's not a Rose Morris by pure definition, hence the use of the "S" designation on Rose Morris spec guitars that never passed through their hands.

Besides, an f-hole was standard issue on the 325 model, so technically it's not even a 325S....just a standard issue garden-variety 325.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (Ric_MEL) » Sun May 08, 2011 11:33 pm

this actually was my original question..

is that I thought since it had an "f" hole.. it was a Rose Morris.. and that would have meant John Fogerty got the <American made> guitar from across the pond.

apparently not!

I did not realize that 325's for domestic consumption had an "f" hole. ( always thought: "f" hole meant: Rose Morris export! )

Thanks everyone..
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (trosse) » Mon May 09, 2011 4:43 am

collin wrote:
trosse wrote:All Rickenbackers with an F-hole are Rose-Morris models - and that means only that they - just like all other genuine Rickenbackers in - are build in California, USA - but with some details added with particularly appeal to British and European players (in the 60s...).



I think you missed our point, Troels.

Of course Rics are all made in the US
Of course the Rose Morris models have different names-----this is all widely known information, especially here.

What we're saying (to bring it back to point) is that John Fogarty's 325 is a standard American Market Rickenbacker 325, and not a Rose Morris.

He never bought it in the UK---Rose Morris ltd never touched the guitar....it's not a Rose Morris by pure definition, hence the use of the "S" designation on Rose Morris spec guitars that never passed through their hands.

Besides, an f-hole was standard issue on the 325 model, so technically it's not even a 325S....just a standard issue garden-variety 325.


Hmmm ... I know you know... I was just quoting a bit (too much...). On the other hand it's a common mistake that Rose, Morris actually build the f-hole Rickenbackers.

I've checked with the litterature - and don't see anywhere that 325's for homemarket should have had f-holes. But I believe that Fogerty (with an e not a...) had his 325 long before he ever visited Great Britain for the first time.

F-holes was a Rickenbackers idea - not Rose, Morris' - as they believed f-holes better suited the European market. That said f-holdes in 325 were not exactly a standard issue as standard for 325's was no f-holes at all - as per Lennons two first well known 325's.

Lennons 325/12 on the other hand had an F-hole and a fireglo finish - and in the litterature it's described like this: "It had an F-hold like a Rose, Morris".. indicating it wasn't a RM... and it probably wasn't as it was sent directly from L.A. to Brian Epsteins office (and disapperared for some weeks before finally arriving) - and not to Rose, Morris Ltd. in London.
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Re: John Fogarty 325

Postby (collin) » Mon May 09, 2011 3:43 pm

trosse wrote:

I've checked with the litterature - and don't see anywhere that 325's for homemarket should have had f-holes.


They were. Count how many '58-'79 325's had f-holes and how many didn't. You'll find the non-f hole 325's are unbelievably rare (custom-order, I believe), and until the B-series 325 "reissues" in the early 80's, 325's by and large had f-holes.

Take a look through the gallery and see for yourself. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~glen325/index.html

F-holes was a Rickenbackers idea - not Rose, Morris' - as they believed f-holes better suited the European market.


Source, please.

That said f-holdes in 325 were not exactly a standard issue as standard for 325's was no f-holes at all - as per Lennons two first well known 325's.


Nope. Lennon's were the exception, not the rule.

Lennons 325/12 on the other hand had an F-hole and a fireglo finish


Nope.

His 325/12 was Jetglo....with no f-hole. You want a picture of it? :)
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