Are 360/12's hard to play?

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paologregorio
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by paologregorio »

"Are 360/12's hard to play?"

Only when it's time to stop....

Kidding aside; you may be unconsciously "white knuckling" with your fretting hand because you perceive the neck as smaller, and therefore grip the neck tighter without realizing it.
There is no reason to ever be bored.

...why yes, I suppose I do have a double bound guitar fetish...

"Uh, I like the double bounds. . . ."
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teb
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by teb »

Wind the srtings from the peg hole toward the outside edges of the headstock. The more wraps you use, the farther outboard the string's lead angle will be, so this may be a situation where it is beneficial to have quite a few wraps for more clearance of the truss rod cover and slot edges.

12-string samples:
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/M ... amples.mp3
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jviss
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

jdawe wrote:By "goes to the nut" I meant that if you started from the cut end of the string and followed it along, it would begin by passing through the hole in the tuner post, make several revolutions around the post, then carry on to the nut, along the fretboard and down to the bridge and tailpiece until you got to the ball end.
Now I get it, thanks.
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by JakeK »

When playing my V64, I have to really work to get a full barre chord going pretty. I push down hard, but it gets done. As I go higher up the neck, the more I have to work. It's all about practice and precision!
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

JakeK wrote:When playing my V64, I have to really work to get a full barre chord going pretty. I push down hard, but it gets done. As I go higher up the neck, the more I have to work. It's all about practice and precision!
Thanks. Just to be sure I understand you, isn't "higher up the neck" towards the bridge, and lower towards the nut? I think you mean that when you go towards the nut, i.e., the first fret, you work harder, no?

Thanks,

jv
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jdawe
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jdawe »

[quote="jI think you mean that when you go towards the nut, i.e., the first fret, you work harder, no?[/quote]

Not necessarily. The amount of downwards force you have to exert to fret a string depends both on the angle the fretted string makes with the fixed points (the nut and the bridge) and the action (the amount of vertical distance between the fret and the string at rest). If your action is the same everywhere along your fretboard it would take more force to fret near the nut, because the string angle is sharper. But if your action is higher as you go up the neck (e.g., your neck has some relief) it can be harder to fret higher up the neck, because you have to move the string further, increasing the tension which in turn increases the resisting force.
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

jdawe wrote:[quote="jI think you mean that when you go towards the nut, i.e., the first fret, you work harder, no?
Not necessarily. The amount of downwards force you have to exert to fret a string depends both on the angle the fretted string makes with the fixed points (the nut and the bridge) and the action (the amount of vertical distance between the fret and the string at rest). If your action is the same everywhere along your fretboard it would take more force to fret near the nut, because the string angle is sharper. But if your action is higher as you go up the neck (e.g., your neck has some relief) it can be harder to fret higher up the neck, because you have to move the string further, increasing the tension which in turn increases the resisting force.[/quote]
Yes, agreed. I was thinking Jake was experiencing what I was, that the action is pretty low over a flat neck, but maybe a bit high at the nut, relatively speaking; so you really have to clamp down at the first fret, while not so much further up the neck.
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by Folkie »

Forgive me if I'm being redundant (I scanned this thread rather quickly). I had the exact same problem with my 360/12: trouble playing barre chords near the nut. The barred F-chord was particularly challenging, as I couldn't fret the high unison strings without tons of buzz and rattle. My tech looked at the guitar for about a minute and told me the nut grooves weren't deep enough. He reworked the nut. Problem solved. :D
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

Folkie wrote:Forgive me if I'm being redundant (I scanned this thread rather quickly). I had the exact same problem with my 360/12: trouble playing barre chords near the nut. The barred F-chord was particularly challenging, as I couldn't fret the high unison strings without tons of buzz and rattle. My tech looked at the guitar for about a minute and told me the nut grooves weren't deep enough. He reworked the nut. Problem solved. :D
That sounds like it might be my problem.

Please believe me, I'm not being a troll here, but I'm disappointed, and in a bit of a quandary. I really liked the idea of having a Ric 12 string, and this is certainly the most expensive guitar I've ever purchased. I'm a bit appalled at what I think is just very poor sloppy set-up from the factory, that make it just super-hard to play (plus the damaged octave-E string). I'm not a pro, but I've been playing a long time, and I can play an F7 without thinking about it on all of my other guitars including the Takamine F400S acoustic 12 string, and on the Ric I get a buzz and/or a cramp in my hand. If someone said, "Oh yea, they're all like that," I could accept that. If it's really just set-up, I'm hesitant to take a file to the nut, or bring it to a luthier, partly because I don't think I should have to, having purchased it new; and, I might decide to return it, and I don't want to molest it. I bummed, and don't know what to do.

That said, as I asked before, I wonder if anyone has documented a well set-up Ric 360/12, in terms of measurements of neck concavity (some say 'flat'), and string height at certain reference points, like 1st fret and 12th fret (e.g., Fender references 17th).

I don't expect an expert, super set-up out of the box, but I do expect that it be nominally correct, and playable, and if I want to take it somewhere for a fret level, crown and polish and a custom set-up I could get that done, and it wouldn't be tons of hours to complete.

I know this may sound like I'm just bitchin', so I apologize, it's just that I'm really disappointed and torn, and I would like some input from what appears to be the most expert bunch of people on the Ric topic.

Thanks again,

jv
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stsang
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by stsang »

jviss wrote:That said, as I asked before, I wonder if anyone has documented a well set-up Ric 360/12, in terms of measurements of neck concavity (some say 'flat'), and string height at certain reference points, like 1st fret and 12th fret (e.g., Fender references 17th).
Hi John,

Did you check out this post on the Forum? It might have some information that is pertinent to your situation.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=101426

Good luck and don't give up on your Ric!
-Simon 8)
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
Folkie
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by Folkie »

John,

You certainly don't need to apologize for being dissatisfied with your 360/12. The folks here are finicky, and troubleshooting is one of the things this forum is for. Am I correct that you purchased the guitar through Musician's Friend? I ask that for several reasons. If you had bought from, say, Pick of the Ricks, then you would have had a professional setup right out of the box. (That's not to say that the Rickenbacker factory does bad setups; only that the guitars at Musician's Friend may have been sitting in a warehouse for indeterminate amounts of time, and can develop all kinds of issues that require a proper setup to correct.) The plus side of ordering from MF is that they give you up to 30 days to check out the guitar and return it if dissatisfied. In your case that's a huge advantage, because it's given you time to inspect the guitar closely and seek assistance here.

You have several options. If you have a local tech who is familiar with Rickenbackers, I would take the guitar to that person for an inspection and setup. You should be very specific about how you want the guitar adjusted. (I always write a letter to my tech specifying everything from action to neck relief and then tape that letter to the outside of the guitar case.) If you don't, and the setup problems are still making you unhappy, you might consider either sending the guitar back to Musician's Friend in exchange for another, or shipping it to someone who works exclusively on Rics, like Chris Clayton at Pick of the Ricks. You'll pay extra, but you'll have the reassurance of knowing that your guitar is in the hands of a true expert. I've owned Rickenbacker guitars for 15 years, and I know how frustrating it can be when something just isn't right. Lucky for you, you still have the option of sending yours back if it's not to your satisfaction.

I hope this advice has been helpful. Once you get past the initial frustrations, I'm sure you'll begin to enjoy all the pleasures that come from owning one of the most beautiful and unique instruments ever made.

Best of luck!

Robert
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

Thanks for the kind words an good input. I've haven't decided. It's a beautiful instrument, and U.S. made, to boot.
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idealassets
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by idealassets »

I know this may sound like I'm just bitchin', so I apologize, it's just that I'm really disappointed and torn, and I would like some input from what appears to be the most expert bunch of people on the Ric topic.
If you have a return privilege, may I suggest you attempt to answer:

1) Is your guitar a lemon, and you have to bail out of it? (least likely option)
2) Was your guitar set-up done by a dealer that actually botched a probable good factory set-up? (maybe)

In my own experience with Ric, Martin, and Guild guitars- often I have to bail out on people, not the guitar. For example, slick talking guitar dealership "experts" and luthiers, and instead go get some help in finding truly good and knowledgeable techs to correct the efforts of amateur big talkers.

I have not yet heard of anyone anywhere with a guitar horror story on a new Rickenbacker. That's since I bought my 360/12 one year ago. But I have heard of bad experiences on Martin, Guild, and even more so on Gibson "lemon", or "worse sounding" guitars as a comparison to superb, normal, or slightly bad overall quality. Many non-Ric owners know that Ric was the first company to produce electric guitars in the world, thus I have lots of confidence in what I hear and know about Ric's acroos the board.

-Craig
2007 Guild F412 Blond
2011 Rickenbacker 360/12 Maple
bowser2533
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by bowser2533 »

When i first purchased mine it was hard to fret but after several months it is finally rite and so easy to fret and even sounds better. Heres what i did. First i had a12 saddle bridge put on. By the way the guy who puts all the b benders in Brad Paisleys guitars did the work, he is amazing. 2 loosen a few of the strings which touch on the name plate and remove the name plate you will see 2 truss rods.Also i put a set of thomastic invelds flatwound strings on before i started. 3 make sure that u retune the guitar to pitch before you make any adjustments to the truss rods.4 Place an 18 inch machinists scale on the neck and with afeeler guage take a measurement at the 7 8 and 9th frets on the high side and the low side. If is more than 2 thousands on the treble side and more than 4 thousands on the low side you need to straighten the neck. He used a12 point small wrench to do the adjustments. Start with the high side and only turn one quarter turn at a time. Turn it one quarter turn and take a measurement.If it needs more go another quarter turn till it 2 thousands on the treble side. Then repeat the process on the bass side. He did this to mine and it plays like a dream. Then loosen the strings that touch the name plate and reinstall the plate. Tune guitar back to pitch. Then lower the strings till they buss and with the 4 adjusting screws raise the bridge up. These screws are 40 threads per inch a quarter turn will raise the bridge 2 and a half thousands. Keep going till the buzz is gone. Then last set set the intonation. I think this will fix your problem, it did it for me and i couldnt be happier with the results. Let me know if this worked out for you if you decide to do it yourself or if someone does it for you, hope this helps. Gary
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Re: Are 360/12's hard to play?

Post by jviss »

Greg, thanks for your reply. I think I have a train wreck of a setup. Since one of the features of this is that the nut slots are nowhere near deep enough, I can't blame this on MF, since they could only have made the slots deeper if they messed with it. The good news is that it is not terminal, i.e., relatively easily fixed.

jv
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