Are 360/12's hard to play?

jviss · Post by **jviss** » Sat May 05, 2012 8:18 pm

Hey, great forum. New owner, first Ric, a new 360/12 Fireglo.

I'm not a pro player, I've been playing on and off for 40 years, folk, rock, classical. My first 12 string is a Takamine acoustic F400s (an early one). I didn't have much trouble with this one.

But wow, my left hand is killing me! I'm having genuine trouble with barre chords, particularly towards the headstock.

I have also noticed how narrow the neck is, nd it's taking a bit of practice to play it.

The action seems fine, perfect, in fact. I am quite impressed at the factory set-up.

Is this normal?

eljayski · Post by **eljayski** » Sat May 05, 2012 10:21 pm

hi, john. i got a 330/12 recently and initially had the same problems with playability. i have a telecaster 12-str that played better.

my ric needed (and received) a setup which made a world of difference.

my limited experience is that a ric can appear to be better set up than it really is.

two of my rics came with excellent setups (provided by the seller) while the other two (different seller) needed post-purchase attention.

hope this helps, eljayski

jdawe · Post by **jdawe** » Sun May 06, 2012 9:00 am

It doesn't sound normal to me. If you're not accustomed to the narrow Rickenbacker fretboard it can take some time to get used to, particularly on a 12. However, it sounds like you're also having issues with the amount of pressure you have to exert to fret barre chords. My experience with my 620-12 (which I got about a year ago) was very different -- I was expecting to have difficulty, having never played a 12 before, and was surprised to find that it was almost as easy to play as my 620-6.

Changing strings might help. On the recommendation of many here, when I got mine I had Chris at POTR set it up with the Thomastik Infeld flats. They're the only strings I've ever had on it so I can't compare them to the factory strings, but I can confirm that they feel great. I think they may be lower tension than the factory strings.

jviss · Post by **jviss** » Sun May 06, 2012 10:03 am

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Is there a standard for the set-up, i.e., measurements for the action, the way Fender publishes these? Then I could at least measure string height, etc., and get an idea of where I am. For example, maybe the slots in the nut weren't filed deep enough, or something like that.

I may also find a local dealer today and try out another one.

Thanks,

jv

jimk · Post by **jimk** » Sun May 06, 2012 1:34 pm

A standard for set-up? I honestly didn't know there could be such a thing. I just used my eyes and an 18 inch steel rule as a straight edge. As long as I could see any gap between the rule and the top surface of any fret, I knew there still needed to be an adjustment of the truss rods. Once everything was straight and flat, it was good.
JimK

winston · Post by **winston** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Hi John,

The short answer to your question is no.......they do not have to be hard to play. As suggested by others in this thread a good setup should eliminate any issues that you may be experiencing.

I have been playing Rickenbacker guitars since 1965 and in particular their 12 string guitars since 1966. They are easy instruments to play when set up properly. Currently I have a JG 360/12 WB. Strangely enough, I found myself playing it a lot this weekend.

IMO they are the best 12 string electric guitars ever made.

electrofaro · Post by **electrofaro** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:42 pm

winston wrote:Currently I have a JG 360/12 WB.

Remember, Brian, if you ever suddenly want to ship it to Holland for free, let me know

Welcome to the forum, John!

winston · Post by **winston** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Werner,

In my experience.......everything is for sale at a price that is designed to motivate an owner to be a seller.

electrofaro · Post by **electrofaro** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:43 am

Brian, Brian... just look at what that attitude did to the global economy

John, any pictures of your guitar?

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:13 pm

As a rule, if I buy a 12-string, I have to have a plan in place to replace the nut according to my own spec's. Especially with the Ric, and even with the newer nuts, it must be redone in order for me to get the most out of the guitar. I did this with my 330-12, and would still prefer a 2nd pass at it, to try to make it better ! Needless to say, 1.625" for 12 strings is quite cramped !!

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Mon May 07, 2012 6:26 pm

Re fretting chord shapes on the Ric 12 strings and the concerns some people have with their narrow necks....
There have been positive comments about the Roger McGuinn 12-string instructional DVD, sharing his advice for certain chord shapes, fingering and the like. You might want to check this DVD out. One used to be able to see some excerpts from Roger's instructional DVD on You Tube, but I don't know if those videos have been pulled by the You Tube copyright infringement police.

jviss · Post by **jviss** » Mon May 07, 2012 8:12 pm

Thanks again for the inout. Here's the obligatory pic.

I went to a shop in Allston and played a couple of Rics, all new. He had one 360/12. I found it a bit easier to play. Once thing I noticed was that that one was that the neck was set up with a bit of concavity, as many guitars are set up. My Ric has the neck set dead flat. Also, while I didn't take any measurements, the strings were set deeper in the nut on the one in the store than on mine.

I am disappointed so far. The guitar is beautiful, of course, and it's made in the good ol' U.S. of A., which pleases me no end. A couple of things that I don't like are:

neck heavy - I like to play with the neck at about 45º, as I play classical; this one wants to sit with the neck horizontal;
I just don't get the blend control; I know what it does, and I review the schematic (I'm an electrical engineer) - maybe I will grow to love it;
I guess this is easily fixed, but I don't know: the way it's strung, the strings on the headstock slot pegs (terminology?) and wound outside-to-in, with the result that the strings are rubbing the wood, and in one case the truss rod cover plate. Should the strings be wound inside-out?
one wound string is damaged, the windings cut through, where it appears a screwdriver for the truss rod plate, or perhaps the wrench; not terminal, but annoying on new instrument that takes a $15 set of strings;
the second G string was tuned in unison rather than an octave higher when I received the guitar, and resulted in a buzz; I don't care how long it took me to figure this out and tune it correctly (I don't know the terminology for the strings on a twelve string).

Here are pics of the string winding on the headstock, and the damaged, frayed string:

One note: there was a card from Musician's Friend saying they had set the guitar up, which I kind a doubt, but I can't assign some of the things to Rickenbacker, for example, the damaged string or improperly tuned string, as MF may have done it.

I'd really appreciate some expert input on setup: neck concavity (amount, or none), string height, etc. I still can't play a barre chord on the first fret without thinking hard about it, and I feel that up and down the fingerboard I really have to clamp down to get decent tone.

Thanks,

jv

jdawe · Post by **jdawe** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:42 pm

The standard Rickenbacker setup is to have the neck dead flat. My 12 is like that and is very playable at the first fret. I'm not an expert, but it seems to me more likely that the issue is with your nut, and that if you add relief you may decrease playability further up the neck.

My strings are strung like your octave A: that is, with the windings to the inside of the point where the string leaves the post and goes to the nut. I can't make it out in your photo - are some of yours wound the opposite way?

The neck heaviness is an inevitable byproduct of adding a mass of extra metal to the headstock of a 6-string without making any compensating modifications to the body.

Even though I know that the blend knob really doesn't do anything that can't also be done with the bass volume knob, I find myself using it all the time anyway. Plus, you have to admit it looks cool.

It sounds to me like your guitar is in need of some attention from a good luthier. If you tell us where you're located there's a good chance people here will be able to recommend someone near you.

jviss · Post by **jviss** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:59 pm

jdawe wrote: My strings are strung like your octave A: that is, with the windings to the inside of the point where the string leaves the post and goes to the nut. I can't make it out in your photo - are some of yours wound the opposite way?

Thanks for your reply. I don't fully understand your description above, because I don't get the "goes to the nut" part. The octave A is wound such that the windings stack towards the outside of the headstock. It is the only one that is wound this way. I think it is the correct way for them to wind. On the others, the windings are about to come in contact with the inboard edge of the slot, and the strings are touching the headstock wood. It certainly doesn't look or seem right to me.

Here's a close-up of one that's wound outside-in, the B string (I think). You can see the winding, and the string running over the wooden edge of the slot.

What do you think? Is this how yours is strung?

jdawe · Post by **jdawe** » Mon May 07, 2012 10:50 pm

By "goes to the nut" I meant that if you started from the cut end of the string and followed it along, it would begin by passing through the hole in the tuner post, make several revolutions around the post, then carry on to the nut, along the fretboard and down to the bridge and tailpiece until you got to the ball end.

With the exception of my B, mine are all wound like your A and the opposite to your other strings. My B is for some reason wound the other way.

However, mine are also wound with far fewer turns around the post - no more than two. As a result, even though most of my strings are wound differently from yours, they still sit very close to the centerline and several are in direct contact with the sides of the slots or the truss rod cover, like yours. I don't think this is a problem - indeed, I think it is inevitable given the underlying geometry, particularly if you use only a few turns around the post (which is generally better for tuning stability).

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