Unwinding high gains

[fiveightandten]

I have a 1990 model year 620, and the high gains are just too hot and muddy. I've added caps in to roll off bass, but the neck pickup is 15.7K, and it's still just not useable. I'm considering unwinding the neck a bit, or maybe both of them (the bridge is 12K)

I've searched and found some info, but its scarce. Are there any words of wisdom from anyone who has done this? What method did you use, and about how many turns should I plan on taking off to get this thing down to something reasonable (say, 10K)?

Here's the guitar.






-Nick

[jps]

Are there any words of wisdom

-Nick

Yeah. Sell the hi-gains and put toasters in the guitar.

[iiipopes]

I did it. I unwound a 14-15kohm high gain down to @ 7.5 - 8 kohms. This was before scatterwounds or the newer high gains with adjustable pole pieces were readily available. I only did it because I have almost 40 years of tinkering with electric instruments, and I knew the risks of dealing with 44AWG wire, finer than a human hair.

It took a couple of hours. You need to stop and check with your ohmmeter every so often to make sure you aren't unwinding too much. I wanted ultimate jangle out of my 1981 360-12WB FG ckbd, so I went all the way down to 7.5 - 8 kohms. I got lucky: since I have a 24-fret guitar, the neck pickup takes on some acoustic-y qualities with the right settings, since it is closer to where an acoustic guitar soundhole would be.

For your solid body 6-string, I wouldn't go below 10kohms.

The bar magnet is composite and extremely brittle. It could break if you aren't extremely careful.

Finally, the new high-gains with the adjustable poles, I believe, also have @ 10kohms' worth of wire on them. They have clarity and definition, but still have body and drive. I would suggest a pair of the new high gains would be a safer, albeit more expensive option to get the tones you are looking for.

[Ric5150]

Are there any words of wisdom

-Nick

Yeah. Sell the hi-gains and put toasters in the guitar.

What he said.

If the hi-gains are "too hot" for you, you probably aren't going for a distorted sound very often. The toasters do clean chime better and hold up pretty well into overdrive with a little 'crunch'. You may very well like the toasters better.

[fiveightandten]

Yeah. Sell the hi-gains and put toasters in the guitar.

I have toasters in my 360 and love them. But I want a different sound out of this guitar. Also, i'm sorry, but toasters are insanely overpriced these days. They're literally twice as much as they were when I bought them for my 360. They're great pickups, and the quintessential Ric sound in many ways, but the cost is just way too high. I have plenty of other guitars that sound great without needing crazy expensive pickups.

What he said.

If the hi-gains are "too hot" for you, you probably aren't going for a distorted sound very often. The toasters do clean chime better and hold up pretty well into overdrive with a little 'crunch'. You may very well like the toasters better.

It's actually not that they're too hot. Trust me, the neck pickup is literally unusable. I have it backed off as far as I can without stripping the wood, I have a bleed cap on the volume pot, and it's still so muddy and bass heavy that it's literally unusable with any amp at any setting. I've never heard anything like it. And being a single coil at 15.7K in the neck position, it doesn't surprise me that it sounds terrible.

I did it. I unwound a 14-15kohm high gain down to @ 7.5 - 8 kohms. This was before scatterwounds or the newer high gains with adjustable pole pieces were readily available. I only did it because I have almost 40 years of tinkering with electric instruments, and I knew the risks of dealing with 44AWG wire, finer than a human hair.

It took a couple of hours. You need to stop and check with your ohmmeter every so often to make sure you aren't unwinding too much. I wanted ultimate jangle out of my 1981 360-12WB FG ckbd, so I went all the way down to 7.5 - 8 kohms. I got lucky: since I have a 24-fret guitar, the neck pickup takes on some acoustic-y qualities with the right settings, since it is closer to where an acoustic guitar soundhole would be.

For your solid body 6-string, I wouldn't go below 10kohms.

The bar magnet is composite and extremely brittle. It could break if you aren't extremely careful.

Finally, the new high-gains with the adjustable poles, I believe, also have @ 10kohms' worth of wire on them. They have clarity and definition, but still have body and drive. I would suggest a pair of the new high gains would be a safer, albeit more expensive option to get the tones you are looking for.

Excellent info, thanks! I'm willing to take the risk. The pickup (as I mentioned above) is so muddy that is unusable. I really have nothing to loose. I figure i'll try my luck with the neck, and if things go well, I can take some off the bridge to balance them better. I was thinking around 10K or so...so thanks for the insight on that.

If worse comes to worse and I junk them, i'll buy another set of high gains that aren't so overwound. I'd never want to sell this neck pickup to anyone. It's that bad. Anyways, thanks again.

-Nick

[iiipopes]

I forgot to say that the coil on the other pickup opened up and had to be rewound anyway. Here is a little known tidbit: the alnico slugs in the scatterwound 7.4 kohm toasters, due to the iron content in the magnet, will increase the inductance of the pickup. The bar magnet, being composite, does not increase the inductance in the pickup. So if you are looking for a tone that is in emulation of a toaster, then another kohm's worth of wire or so is necessary to bring the overall inductance of the coil back up so the tone doesn't get too thin. So if a toaster has @ 7.4 kohms' worth of wire on the bobbin, then the unwound high gain needs to have @ 8.4 to 9 kohms' worth of wire on it to have a similar tone. Note that I said similar, not the same tone. It can't have the same tone due to the different resonant peak of the coil from having a different amount of wire and a different magnet.

The other tidbit is that, all things being equal, meaning the same bobbin, same magnets, same winding technique of the same wire, etc., a coil with more wire will have a little more intra-coil capacitance along with the higher inductance, and have more mids and less top end than a coil with less wire. How much more? Lindy Fralin uses the rule of thumb that each percentage more wire on the coil results in a percent more mids and a percent less top end. So it is a balancing act: so long as there is enough wire on the coil that the magnetic field does not saturate the windings compared to the signal generated by the vibrating string and cause harshness.

Also remember that with less wire and less inductance, the resonant peak of the pickup changes in intensity as well as frequency. So if you unwind down to @ 10 kohms, you might consider, depending on what is already on the guitar, lightening up the volume pots, whether from 500 to 330 kohms, or if already 330 kohms, down to 250 kohms, or even bridge a 1 meg resistor from hot to ground to modify the taper of the pot, provide a little more loading to ground, which our ears hear as a little bit of rolloff of the top, and adds breadth to the tone - the exact opposite of putting a high-pass capacitor/resistor bridge across the lugs from hot to output to try to retain top end.

[Clint]

Why not buy a set of the current model hi-gains? They sound closer to the tone you're looking for and they're a lot cheaper than toasters.

[fiveightandten]

I forgot to say that the coil on the other pickup opened up and had to be rewound anyway. Here is a little known tidbit: the alnico slugs in the scatterwound 7.4 kohm toasters, due to the iron content in the magnet, will increase the inductance of the pickup. The bar magnet, being composite, does not increase the inductance in the pickup. So if you are looking for a tone that is in emulation of a toaster, then another kohm's worth of wire or so is necessary to bring the overall inductance of the coil back up so the tone doesn't get too thin. So if a toaster has @ 7.4 kohms' worth of wire on the bobbin, then the unwound high gain needs to have @ 8.4 to 9 kohms' worth of wire on it to have a similar tone. Note that I said similar, not the same tone. It can't have the same tone due to the different resonant peak of the coil from having a different amount of wire and a different magnet.

The other tidbit is that, all things being equal, meaning the same bobbin, same magnets, same winding technique of the same wire, etc., a coil with more wire will have a little more intra-coil capacitance along with the higher inductance, and have more mids and less top end than a coil with less wire. How much more? Lindy Fralin uses the rule of thumb that each percentage more wire on the coil results in a percent more mids and a percent less top end. So it is a balancing act: so long as there is enough wire on the coil that the magnetic field does not saturate the windings compared to the signal generated by the vibrating string and cause harshness.

Also remember that with less wire and less inductance, the resonant peak of the pickup changes in intensity as well as frequency. So if you unwind down to @ 10 kohms, you might consider, depending on what is already on the guitar, lightening up the volume pots, whether from 500 to 330 kohms, or if already 330 kohms, down to 250 kohms, or even bridge a 1 meg resistor from hot to ground to modify the taper of the pot, provide a little more loading to ground, which our ears hear as a little bit of rolloff of the top, and adds breadth to the tone - the exact opposite of putting a high-pass capacitor/resistor bridge across the lugs from hot to output to try to retain top end.

Excellent info Scott. Thanks so much for passing that on. I'm not looking to emulate the sound of a toaster, so no worries there, but that's great to know about the magnet differences.

I have some pots kicking around, so I can play around with those if need be. I'll get them down to 10K or so, and see how things sound with the stock wiring.

Why not buy a set of the current model hi-gains? They sound closer to the tone you're looking for and they're a lot cheaper than toasters.

Because unwinding these is free and I already have them. It's really the neck pickup that's more of a problem than anything. This neck pickup belongs in the garbage the way it is, plain and simple. I can't re-sell it to anyone with how terrible it sounds. Maybe I should record a quick video of it so you guys can see why i'm not worried about the risk of ruining it trying to unwind it.

Another reason to try unwinding before buying something new is that these Rickenbacker pickups seem to be all over the place in terms of sound. It seems that whoever is winding these things is stuck in the 1950's with respect to their tolerances. It would be terrible to spend money on another set, and find out they're not quite where I want them. I've played PLENTY of really nice sounding Rics with high gains in them. This guitar just isn't one of them. Again...15.7K on a single coil in the neck position! That's as hot as the hottest Gibson humbuckers out there. The low end on it is a complete mess.

[Clint]

Are these pickups fiber-tops by any chance? The top of the bobbin being a flat, matte finished fiberboard. The neck pickup of the pair was wound super hot, 15K sounds about right. They may not be your cup of tea but believe it or not there are players out there looking for fiber-top hi-gains. Maybe you should post that video.

[fiveightandten]

Are these pickups fiber-tops by any chance? The top of the bobbin being a flat, matte finished fiberboard. The neck pickup of the pair was wound super hot, 15K sounds about right. They may not be your cup of tea but believe it or not there are players out there looking for fiber-top hi-gains. Maybe you should post that video.

Hey Clint. Yeah, they are fiber-tops.

If there's a desire for these, i'll sell them, for sure. But you're right, they're definitely not my cup of tea. I'll post something up so you guys can have a listen.

[fiveightandten]

Just as an update, apologies I never got around to posting sound clips. But I picked up some toasters, and switched pickups around a bit. I took both fiber tops out of the 620. In the bridge, I put the high gain out of my 360, and in the neck, I put a toaster. MUCH better! I put a 500K volume pot in the bridge position. Both guitars had 250K (reading around 220K) in there from the factory.

These toasters are pretty light on the windings (in the 6.2K range), so i'll be on the lookout for some hot toasters. I think those will be better suited to my tastes in both guitars. But the 620 is actually useable and sounds pretty good now.

If anyone is looking for some seriously hot fiber tops, you know who to call!

Also, what's the process for putting toaster covers on high gains? I may want to do that so my 620 pickups match (aesthetically).

Both guitars.

[8mileshigher]

Also, what's the process for putting toaster covers on high gains? I may want to do that so my 620 pickups match (aesthetically).

fiveightandten: there are several threads on the RRF with detailed pictures and step-by-step coaching on Toasterizing your High Gains. Check the search button.

One thing to remember is that when you countersink the holes for screws as replacements for the iron pole-pieces, (to get the top to be "level" for the Toaster cover) that you need to compensate for the depth of the counter-sink and get a shorter-length screw. Otherwise if you keep twisting that screw to get the head level, you can possibly break or damage the core from the screw putting downward pressure on it.

Also its been suggested, that one shouldn't use Stainless Steel screws as they are a poor conductor compared to the iron content in regular screws.

[fiveightandten]

Better late than never...a bit of an update on this.

I unwound the bridge pickup by hand and it worked out beautifully. I wound it down to 9.5K, and the sound is MUCH better. I can actually hear something other than low end! I haven't touched the neck pickup, as that one is so hot it'll take some work to unwind. And I want to spend more time with the bridge to be sure I don't want to take any more off (you can't go backwards!). I'll eventually take that one down too, but for now I have a toaster in the neck, and the unwound 9.5K bridge in there.

For anyone thinking of doing this, it's not difficult, just time consuming. You have to be careful you don't make any breaks in the winding. Be gentle. Oh, but the time...did I mention it's time consuming? Plan on sitting there for at least an hour, unwinding wire by hand. I looked around for anything that I could rig up to do it faster than by hand. If you don't have a pickup winder, you're not likely to find another method. Just watch a movie or something and do it up. Check your resistance every 10 or 15 minutes of work. You won't believe how slow you're going.

Anyways...definitely worth the effort. I was going to sell this guitar. It sounded that bad. Unwinding these completely turned it around.

[8mileshigher]

Hi fiveightandten --- did you ever try posting an ad for that super-hot High Gain in the Marketplace - For Sale section of the RRF ? ?

There just might be Ric owners, on the Forum, who are in bands that play that type of music, that someone might just be looking for a deep low end, gainy sound. I wouldn't unwind that pickup until you've exhausted the chance that someone out there might really be looking for that type of sound. Lots of us end up buying and selling different pick-ups on the RRF for setting up our different Rics, for specific sounds. And there have been several types of High Gains issued over the decades, that have different tones.

[iiipopes]

You got it done in an hour? That's fast. Almost too fast. Plan on two hours to get the neck pickup to match. Don't take off any more than you did on the bridge pickup - it will sound thin. As a matter of fact, consider leaving a little bit more on, since the neck pickup needs a little more wire on the bobbin to give a little higher inductance and more mids with a hair less treble to get a good round tone to better contrast the bridge pickup. Use the 5th knob to balance, especially if you retain the .0047 inline capacitor to the bridge pickup.