Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

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Amber
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Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by Amber »

I'm talking about the octave strings being below the...normal string. This is causing me problems with playability on my 1993Plus. I'm pretty much all for having a new nut cut with the bass E and A swapped about to a 'traditional' 12 string set up.
I'd also like to suggest that that 'Rickenbacker 12 string sound' does not come from the string placement.
I'm using 5 metal finger picks. For the bass E and A my thumb strikes down. The other 3 or 4 strike up. (The high E and B are the same strings)....as you all know.
So, I suggest, that, that Rick sound comes from McGuinn's compressors and his metal picks. There is no way that the orientation of strings gives that Ric sound.
I'm totally about to get a new nut on this guitar to my specs, but, research into this is needed. What do you say?
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wim
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by wim »

First you will need a definition of 'that' Ric sound.

Since you refer to McGuinn I presume you mean his 'jangle' sound.
It's the complete series of his technique, ric stringing, string type, toaster pickups, bridge, body design and studio compressors that account for that. Each of these had its influence.

The closest you will come to this guitar (to my ears) is either buy a '64 - '65 new style ric 360-12 or get the 360-12 Carl Wilson model.
The way rickenbacker strings their 12 strings does make a difference as the octave stings are hit less hard than if it would be the other way around. So on both down as up strokes you get a different sound. With the octaves more on the background.
Amber
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by Amber »

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I was referring to that 12 string jangle sound that McGuinn acheived. I think I was assuming he picked more and strummed less. I can see how string placement may have some effect.
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wim
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by wim »

In the case of McGuinn, the heavy compressing may have had an influence on the way the guitar was strung, as the compressing will raise the level of the octave strings relative to that of the normal ones, creating an effect you get with neither stringing options: equal volume.
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jdogric12
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by jdogric12 »

RM uses a flatpick plus 2 fingerpicks on (IIRC) the ring and pinkie fingers.
Folkie
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by Folkie »

He uses metal fingerpicks on his middle and ring fingers, right? :D
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jdogric12
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by jdogric12 »

Folkie wrote:He uses metal fingerpicks on his middle and ring fingers, right? :D
Could be... now that you mention it, I'm not sure if it's ring/pinky or middle/ring, so you might be right. A quick peek at his famous instructional video should sort that out.
tcsmit29
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by tcsmit29 »

It is ring and middle for the finger picks. Also this is a method that he switched to later on. For early stuff like Mr T Man, he used a traditional thumbpick with the two fingerpicks on first and middle fingers. He stated that he switched later on when he realized that he would need a flatpick for more strumming type songs. I've seen him talk about this on his instructional video and some videos on Youtube.
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by Folkie »

tcsmit29 wrote:It is ring and middle for the finger picks. Also this is a method that he switched to later on. For early stuff like Mr T Man, he used a traditional thumbpick with the two fingerpicks on first and middle fingers. He stated that he switched later on when he realized that he would need a flatpick for more strumming type songs. I've seen him talk about this on his instructional video and some videos on Youtube.
All the information you supply is correct, with one exception: McGuinn says he switched from the plastic thumb-pick to a flat-pick not for strumming, but for doing faster bluegrass-style alternate picking. It was only natural, after he began holding a flat-pick between his thumb and index finger, for him to shift the metal banjo-picks from his index and middle to his middle and ring fingers.
Clifton
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by Clifton »

I say leave the nut as it is. I think you just need time to get used to a new instrument. I have a 1993 and love everything about it. The only thing I did to it was to remove the small bridge cover and get a good, professional setup of the guitar. Give yourself some time to get used to it and find "your" sound. If you're interested in Roger McGuinn, his instructional DVD is excellent. He goes into great detail on how he sets up his guitars, how he plays, and how he gets his sound. One detail: he tunes down a half step on the video.
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by JANGLE »

I have a 330/12 and another 12 string electric and thinking of getting a nut cut the same as the Rickenbacker configuration.

I always believed that the Rick 12 sound came from the nut configuration so this is interesting.
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by steverok »

wim wrote:In the case of McGuinn, the heavy compressing may have had an influence on the way the guitar was strung, as the compressing will raise the level of the octave strings relative to that of the normal ones, creating an effect you get with neither stringing options: equal volume.
With all due respect, I don't believe compression will give you this effect. If both the normal and octave strings are struck together, their volume will be adjusted by the compressor as one.
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teb
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by teb »

You can't seriously even have this discussion without including the huge difference made by the strings themselves. If you are looking for jangle, they will make far more difference than which way the guitar is strung. The vintage jangle is best produced with flat-wound strings (Thomastic Infeld Jazz Flats if you want the best, Pyramids if you want something stiffer and are willing to risk the neck due to their high tension). Even from the start, you will notice that the sound of the wound strings in these sets is pretty darned dull. This brings out the sound of the octave strings in the mix, and that's the base element for jangle, upon which you can build with compression, tone controls, etc. Round-wound strings are generally too twangy to do this well. They will still sound good, but different from what you're aiming for.
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wim
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by wim »

The type of strings is most certainly part of the equation.
But take the proof and compare an upstroke with a downstroke on the same note, on the same string.
There's a difference in sound there because of the relative reversed string order when doing this.
At least on the ones I own(ned) it is (current has TI's on it)
Apart from that, I don't think TI's sound completely dull, but the tension is not much less that the Pyramids I'm afraid. 10-44 set Ti's
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teb
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Re: Does Ric 12 string placement make a difference to sound?

Post by teb »

But take the proof and compare an upstroke with a downstroke on the same note, on the same string.
There's a difference in sound there because of the relative reversed string order when doing this.
Yeah.....and so..........
I don't think anybody said that there wasn't. However, if you're trying to sound like Roger, then you probably want to start by stringing the guitar the same way, and picking them the same way.

As to tension, all you have to do to see the substantial difference between Pyramids and TIs is to try them. It's funny, but that's about the only thing that JH and Mark Arnquist ever agreed on, both saying that Pyramids were not a good idea because of their tension and that they also tended to have uneven core diameters compared to better quality strings.
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