360/12 questions hardware

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TBurst Std
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360/12 questions hardware

Post by TBurst Std »

OK, had my 2009 360/12 for a few months, and wanting to make some mods:

1. the slop in the tuners through the headstock slop I want to address. There are no bushings there. Is that they preferred way to address? If so, what size bushings? I am presuming vintage. What is the best way to cut/trim these to size? (I I am thinking just take them to a machine shop).
I seem to recall also someone putting a washer on the end of the post (can't seem to find the thread).

2. Somehow, I seemed to have lost 1 bridge bolt(screw) and spring. I am presuming the best way to get one is to call Ric.

3. thinking on a 12 saddle bridge. Are the saddles spaced such so that each string is centerlined on the saddle? Or should I provide the old saddle for someone to notch the new one?

Thanks
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teb
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Re: 360/12 questions hardware

Post by teb »

My 12-saddle bridge was set up by Mark Arnquist and this is one of the photos he sent me. The saddles are temporarily aligned so that their tops and corners can be rounded a bit and the tape protects the finish. Then the slots are cut and filed to the needed widths. I like my pairs as tight as possible and as much space as is possible between different pairs. Thus, the slots tend to be near the edges of the individual saddles, rather than in the middle of them. Once the slots are done, the saddles got a rough adjustment to their working positions, followed by final intonation adjustment with a strobe oscilloscope to what he called a "sweetened" tuning.

Parts can be had from RIC or some of the bigger dealers.

I haven't had any slop in the slotted tuners on any of my twelves. One thing to check is whether the slop is caused by the peg itself in its hole, or from loose screws allowing the whole tuner to move. I seem to recall Mark saying that he usually removed the tuners, hardened up the wood in the screw holes with CA glue and then re-tapped the holes, so that the little screws holding the tuner on wouldn't loosen up over time.
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iiipopes
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Re: 360/12 questions hardware

Post by iiipopes »

All tuners will have a little backlash to keep them from binding. When tuning, always follow the cardinal rule: come up, not go down. If you find a string is sharp, and a slight tug doesn't help (from possible binding at the nut or over the bridge saddle), then back off the string to below pitch, and slowly bring it up to pitch.
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wim
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Re: 360/12 questions hardware

Post by wim »

iiipopes wrote:All tuners will have a little backlash to keep them from binding. When tuning, always follow the cardinal rule: come up, not go down. If you find a string is sharp, and a slight tug doesn't help (from possible binding at the nut or over the bridge saddle), then back off the string to below pitch, and slowly bring it up to pitch.
I always pull them up a bit before tuning up again.
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bvstudios
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Re: 360/12 questions hardware

Post by bvstudios »

About the 12-saddle bridge...

I have one, but it lives back in the little bag it was shipped in, inside the guitar case. Had it on the guitar (370/12) for most of a year and learned that it really wasn't for me.

Yes, the intonation is improved, but for me personally, something almost intangible was lost when the sound became more "correct". It was almost as though individual notes had become a little sterile, and the small bit of detuning that contributes to the legendary "jangle" of a 12-string had been diminished. As a longtime acoustic 12 picker in a celtic folk band, I missed the overtones that the simpler bridge imparted to the overall racket, so I went back to the 6-saddle and it's slightly discordant tones, and for at least the kind of music I play on it, my ears are happier. The difference is subtle, but audible. Of course, it gets more noticable after the 10th fret (esp on the mixed pairs), but most of my leads are on the top three pairs and don't include much fretting on the lower four pairs at that end of the neck.

Tastes vary, I know. But if you're considering investing in a 12-saddle and the setup it needs, please consider keeping the 6-saddle around in case you find the same things I did after the changeover. Purists may get upset, but sometimes, the best sound isn't the "perfect" sound.

At least that's my opinion.
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teb
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Re: 360/12 questions hardware

Post by teb »

"Perfect" intonation on a twelve string guitar is not possible and never will be. There just is no place to set a saddle which will generate perfect pitch for that string all the way up and down the neck - and then do it eleven more times for all the other strings. Thus the "sweetened tuning", which is basically an individual luthier's concept of what the best overall compromise is for that type of instrument. If you just sit there with a tuner and fiddle with the saddle positions until the tuner says the strings are all at true pitch, you can be pretty much assured that the final sound will be disappointing. And that doesn't even consider that you would have to decide where on the neck you should take your readings - open string? fifth fret? twelfth fret? who knows? Our band used to specify a grand piano, freshly tuned to A440 on stage (which half the time we had to lift up there, which made carrying amps around look like child's play). The piano tuners would tell us the same thing - if you tune each string to its proper pitch, the piano sounds like ****.

So a 12-saddle bridge is not always a quick path to good or better sound. It's a tool, and it can sometimes be a very effective tool, but like most tools, it may depend on the skills and experience of the person employing it. My 370/12 was driving me crazy back with the original bridge and having Mark install and tune the 12-saddle bridge made an amazing difference. When I later got my 340/12 I bought another 12-saddle, figuring that it would probably also need one to sound good. As it turned out, it sounds just fine with the six-saddle and the spare 12-saddle has been sitting in a box for about ten years now.
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