Combo 400 Wiring?

[tulipguy]

Hello

New to the forum, please excuse me if this topic is covered elsewhere and direct me there...

My question is how is the original Combo 400 wiring supposed to work, and were there any variations done?

I own 2 of these guitars, and I just now realized the controls function differently. The first one I bought sounds incredible...when it's toggle switch is flipped forward, it bypasses the tone control, volume works normally. When the toggle is flipped back, volume functions normally and tone functions normally, although the tone control turns backwards, ie clockwise turns down highs, contrary to fender controls.

The 2nd one has never sounded right...I bought this one when the other one was stolen from me...luckily I got the first one back and the 2nd has largely sat in a case, hence me never really looking close to see what the issue might be.

Last night I looked and listened, because I have been thinking about selling #2. With toggle switch flipped back, the controls seem to work same as #1, including the tone working in reverse. But when toggle switch is flipped forward, there is a big decrease in level...even when controls are maxed, ie volume fully clockwise, and tone fully counterclockwise, and then as I turn the tone clockwise the volume is further attenuated to almost nothing when fully clockwise...

This is at least way different from how my other one operates in this toggle switch position.

can anybody tell me which is the stock config, or if they've ever seen this issue I have with the one "that has never sounded quite right"? I am encouraged because I think I may be able to copy the wiring in the first one to make #2 sound better...but then again, I don't want to change anything that may be a deviation from the original. This 2nd guitar is much cleaner, with a much better playing neck, and as such might have more value if left original and sold.

[jingle_jangle]

Hi, Steve, and welcome.

The wiring on your #1 sounds like it is correct and original. I've restored a couple of these and that is how they are configured.

The problem on your #2 sounds like it could have a bad pot or the wiring has a short or has been modified over time. I'd pull the pickguard and look to make sure that #1 and #2 agree exactly, using #1 as a reference. If they are exactly the same, I'd suspect a component--one of the pots or a capacitor for starters, or possibly the switch itself. Check also for cold solder joints, though the problem doesn't sound like it could be one of these.

[jdogric12]

Welcome from a fellow tulip lover. I just got a 58 Combo 400. Love it. About one hour ago I took it up to the shop for a refret, or else I'd take some pics and help out. If you decide to sell #2 you should have no problem moving it here, ahem ahem... Cheers JD

[tulipguy]

Thanks for the quick responses guys

I plan to dissect them both and see what's going on..try to get #2 to sound like #1

I'll take pictures while i'm in there to post here

cheers

[tulipguy]

Hey Gents

I opened up the 2 combo 400's today and took a look. Interestingly enough the #1 Ric that I like the sound of actually looked like the wiring had been tampered with, but the #2 one looked completely clean and factory stock. Moreover the #1 guitar looked built more crudely...a drill press was used to cut the routs for example...the other one was routed much more cleanly and was generally immaculate. The pots were the same in both, with a 1 meg tone control, and both used the same capacitor. The switch was different but looked original in each.

After taking a long wistful look at the clean wiring, I changed it up and copied the #1 set up as suggested. This worked, in so much as changing the functions...both are the same now. I need to do some comparisons of the tone tomorrow to see just how much it has improved, but on first listen I think it was big...this guitar is set-up differently, with flat wound strings for my slide playing, so it's a little apples and oranges at the moment.

More will be reported

thanks again

[jdogric12]

My 59(57?) has the straight routes for the pickup wires. My 63 has the drill pressed channels. Interesting!

What years are yours? Thanks for posting all the cool info!

[tulipguy]

According to the serial numbers stamped on the back, the #1 Combo 400 is from 1956, the "newer" cleaner one from 1957.

cheers

[jdogric12]

Have you dated by the pot codes too?

[tulipguy]

Hi

I didn't realize this code could be used to date the gtrs. I searched that topic here and am getting mostly homor...

On gtr #2, it is 140634...clearly labeled 1 meg

On gtr #1, I had it written down 14063. After seeing the other one, I looked again and thought I saw a 4 so I decided they were the same. This one is not marked as to the value, but when I measure it, it measures closer to 250K, so maybe this is a date code and not any sort of value after all.

Perhaps you can enlighten me

[jdogric12]

I'll try to remember to take some pics of mine tonight and we can compare.

[jdogric12]

Here are some pics... pot codes are stamped into the metal: 3279 137.734 (has "C" something hidden between the knob-post and inside-of-casing, looks like a current RIC pot) and the other is ink-stamped (?) on the outside of the casing with "CM18630 1MEG 1407xxx" (the xxx being solder).

I've been referring to this as my '59(57?). It has flatback toasters and the straight pu wiring route as seen here...

I would appreciate any info anyone has on what I might have here, thanks! JD

[tulipguy]

JD

I'm not sure what that is but I know it's not the same as my Combo 400's. Mine are one D'Armond pickup, as pictured here:

http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/c ... combo1.jpg
http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/c ... combo2.jpg
http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/c ... combo3.jpg
http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/c ... combo4.jpg

I'm thinkin maybe yours is a Combo 450 as here:
http://www.rickbeat.com/gallery/johnwilliams/61450.jpg

Anyway, for me the dating thing seems not so critical, because I believe these were only made for a couple years, maybe 56-58, which is "old as dirt" like my great uncle used to say! I just wanted to get the one to sound like the other, and I think I have achieved that. It was definitely very interesting to peer into the guts of such old guitars and I hope I haven't wrecked the pristine wiring of the one by making it match the other, which was far from pristine, but sure sounded a lot better!

Cheerio

s

[jdogric12]

That is my Combo 950. My Combo 400 is getting a refret, and might not be home for a few weeks. I can't wait to open that up too!

[tulipguy]

JD

Right, that will be interesting to me for sure.

I had one of mine re-fretted too...it had been played by a lefty, even had note values, like a,b,c,c# etc carved into the neck on what would be the lefty's top side!

Pure speculation on pot codes for mine could indicate, '56 for the "6" and 34th week of year for "34", yours could indicate '57 for that "7", 140 could mean "1" followed by 4 zeros, or 1 meg, similar to other resistor markings I've seen.

let me know when you get your re-fret back

cheers

s

[jdogric12]

Tulip update... still waiting on refret of 58 Combo 400. Got pickguard for 59 950: will solder this weekend.