jingle_jangle wrote:Still, I'd be really pleased to find any archtop to match a topnotch flat-top in the attributes mentioned above
Paul, to make sure I get this all in the correct way. With archtop we're obviously talking about (semi)hollow guitars like Gibson ES-series or a Byrdland. But, with flattop are meant, not just solidbodies like a Ric 660 or a Fender Jazzmaster, but also guitars that can still be (semi)hollow like a Ric 360 or a Gibson Johnny A? And where does a german-carved 381 fit in?
'67 Fender Coronado II CAB * '17 1963 ES-335 PB * currently rickless
I think the ES designation needs to be redefined a bit as I can think of different types of guitars that both use the ES prefix, for example: ES-5 (archtop), ES330 (thinline hollowbody).
Werner, I'm talking about acoustic playing here. So, arch tops here meaning: thicker-bodied jazz guitars with traditional built-up construction and carved top vs. traditional hollow-bodied, flat-topped American guitars, as pioneered in this country by CF Martin.
The fact that Gibson calls an ES-330 an "arch top" means it's being used as an appearance descriptor, in the sense that a Les Paul is a "carved top". Both these descriptors have little to do with sound; they're both electric guitars, first and foremost. The L5, however, would be considered for the purpose of this comparison, as it was acoustic before it was amplified; thus, it was designed and built to be primarily an acoustic instrument.
Wildberry wrote:Jeffrey, we describe the ES-330 as an archtop at Gibson, albeit a thinline archtop.
I never noticed your connection to Gibson!
Probably because I own so many Gibsons
jingle_jangle wrote:Werner, I'm talking about acoustic playing here. So, arch tops here meaning: thicker-bodied jazz guitars with traditional built-up construction and carved top vs. traditional hollow-bodied, flat-topped American guitars, as pioneered in this country by CF Martin.
The fact that Gibson calls an ES-330 an "arch top" means it's being used as an appearance descriptor, in the sense that a Les Paul is a "carved top". Both these descriptors have little to do with sound; they're both electric guitars, first and foremost. The L5, however, would be considered for the purpose of this comparison, as it was acoustic before it was amplified; thus, it was designed and built to be primarily an acoustic instrument.
Thanks for the explanation, Paul, I just knew I was missing something, now I get it
'67 Fender Coronado II CAB * '17 1963 ES-335 PB * currently rickless
Thanks for the kind words, Paul.
Regarding acoustic, carved archtop guitars:
Yes, in vintage terms we are talking about the 17" guitars like the
- Gibson L-5 / L-7 / L-10 / L-12; D'Angelico Excel; Epiphone Deluxe
and 18" guitars like the Gibson Super 400; D'Angelico New Yorker; Epiphone Emperor
as well as related guitars from a few other makers.
We can discuss post-war archtops later.
Most guitar players have not had the opportunity to play properly set-up acoustic archtop instruments with acoustic strings, and are usually pleasantly surprised to hear how acoustically rich these instruments can be. Many of these guitars are wonderful - I favour a 1938 Gibson L-12 myself. I also favour a 1995 Heritage Super Eagle - an 18" acoustic archtop. Both of these instruments happen to be X-braced. Conventional wisdom is that X-bracing is "sweeter" than parallel bracing.
But back to Roger and German vintage:
Before WWII, a few German luthiers embraced the archtop guitar. These included Wenzel Rossmeisl, Franz Hirsh, Felix Staerke, Otmar Windisch, all of whom built archtops in the pre-war years. Hofner also offered some cheap archtops in their pre-war catalogues. After the war, archtops were built in West Germany by luthiers who had been deported from Czechoslovakia. Most were cheap factory guitars, but a few luthiers stand out, including Rossmeisl, Artur Lang, Arnold Hoyer, Gustav Glassl. There were also a few luthiers in East Germany who built excellent instruments, in and near the the town of Markneukirchen. More on them later.
Roger guitars are bunched into two main groups - those from @1948-1952, usually with "Berlin" labels, and those from @1955-mid 1960s, with "Mittenwald" labels, based on where the Roger shop was located. There are earlier instruments as well as later instruments, but those are another story. Shortly after opening up his Berlin shop, Wenzel was imprisoned in East Germany (where he had opened up a shop to make guitars to supply the Berlin shop), that shop was "taken over by the government, and his son Roger ran the Berlin business. Being a party animal and heavy drinker, Roger ran it into the ground, drove it into bankruptcy, and then left for America in 1953. Following his release from an East German prison, it took Wenzel until 1955 to reestablish the business in the town of Mittenwald. There are slight design change between the guitars from these two periods, but they are essentially the same. The pictures in this thread are both of later, Mittenwald-era guitars. I'll post some pix later.
Roger guitars are also unusual in that they typically have labels and serial numbers - Most German guitars lack these features. Several of us have been putting together a serial number index, which is now up to @ 85 numbers, that generally shows Berlin Rogers with numbers from @109 to 1012, and Mittenwald numbers from 1500 to 3449. While it is possible that the numbers are an accurate count, my personal opinion is that Wenzel skipped many numbers for a variety of reasons - I don't think his shops produced as many as 3450 instruments. He was quite a scoundrel and may have had several reasons for so doing, ranging from tax evasion to simply trying to make his company seem more impressive. Or not.
Perhaps most important is that, qualitatively, Roger guitars are great - every bit as good as the Gibsons, Epis and D'As that inspired them. There were several models, essentially the same instrument but with various levels of trim - the Junior, the Standard, the Luxus and the Super, with a few custom twists along the way. More on all of this later.
Another "Roger" guitar on sale from down home, same Kiwi seller as the one above, this time with an "R" (non-Rick) tailpiece - looks a bit like one of those solid body Gretsches from the late 50s.
