I've always sung that line (from A Day in the Life) as ...
nobody was sure if he was John Paul or George.
As to the 12 string dating issue is has to be 1970's and that's my final answer.
Andy is no dummy but this is NO 1960's at all.
Unless his camera has trick adjustments that mine don't make.
But there is one possible explanation to this also .This is something that Don and I were privy to when we worked there.
If the headstock was smashed into a bazzillion pieces in ,say an accident.Then it could/would be returned back to the 'mothership' for renewal.
Dick Burke,ace wood worked and all around nice guy ,would gently go forth unto the band saw and cut off the neck at the body joint and then using a mortise attachment ,cut out the rest of the neck and then fit a NEW NON -correct spec poured inlay fretboard neck.
GASP !!!! How could they do this!?!?!?!?!!?
Easy---- there was no vintage market at the time and no one ,Fender Gibson Martin etc cared about being 'correct' in that time frame.(this is something that I do thank George Gruhn for-not much else though)Now it is a concern and most of the companies do try to get it 'cosmetically ' correct now.
So that is my answer and I'll stick to it.
Get Andy to pop the guard off and lets see the cavity and the pot codes and the wire and the really fine route job that is so typical of the 1960's,you know the one where an electric Beaver was used?!?!?!
What Makes a Rickenbacker "Vintage?"
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Lord Arnquist spake:
As to the 12-string dating issue is has to be 1970s and that's my final answer.
Agreed.
Andy is no dummy but this is NO 1960s at all.
And if it has a single woodseam under the pickups, it certainly wouldn't be a '65, either, right?
Get Andy to pop the guard off and let's see the cavity and the pot codes and the wire
Yes, but that's still just replaceable hardware. In other words, pots and their codes, and wire, etc., could not be used reliably as the sole determining factors in dating a "Vintage Rickenbacker," since such things could have all been replaced (or retrofitted) at one time or another.
and the really fine route job that is so typical of the 1960s, you know the one where an electric Beaver was used?!?!?!
Yes, that time-honored 1960s "Handmade in America" precision craftsmanship is a dead giveaway, isn't it!
But Andy's Rick aside, what was the approximate 1970s cutoff date/month/year for full-width sparkle inlays and thick neckstripes, etc.? You know, when was "the tail end of the '60s features instruments" (as the good Dr. phrases it)?
As to the 12-string dating issue is has to be 1970s and that's my final answer.
Agreed.
Andy is no dummy but this is NO 1960s at all.
And if it has a single woodseam under the pickups, it certainly wouldn't be a '65, either, right?
Get Andy to pop the guard off and let's see the cavity and the pot codes and the wire
Yes, but that's still just replaceable hardware. In other words, pots and their codes, and wire, etc., could not be used reliably as the sole determining factors in dating a "Vintage Rickenbacker," since such things could have all been replaced (or retrofitted) at one time or another.
and the really fine route job that is so typical of the 1960s, you know the one where an electric Beaver was used?!?!?!
Yes, that time-honored 1960s "Handmade in America" precision craftsmanship is a dead giveaway, isn't it!
But Andy's Rick aside, what was the approximate 1970s cutoff date/month/year for full-width sparkle inlays and thick neckstripes, etc.? You know, when was "the tail end of the '60s features instruments" (as the good Dr. phrases it)?
Terry posted October 18, 2000:
So Don Andrews' 1972 Mapleglo Model 370/12Byrd might be considered a "Vintage Rickenbacker" in the "Classic" sense, while Andy Brauer's 1973+[?] Mapleglo Model 370/12Byrd would not??
Terry: I suppose at some point a decision is made that defines the limits of a particular "classic" period outside of which a particlar instument may not be vintage. Without doing the necessary research and identifying the important variables that constitute a "classic" for a given period, I don't think that it would be reasonable to rule in Don's Rickenbacker as "vintage" and Andy's not. It is interesting to consider, however, whether vintage is categorical or dimensional or some intereaction between the two. As to who decides, I am not sure.
So Don Andrews' 1972 Mapleglo Model 370/12Byrd might be considered a "Vintage Rickenbacker" in the "Classic" sense, while Andy Brauer's 1973+[?] Mapleglo Model 370/12Byrd would not??
Terry: I suppose at some point a decision is made that defines the limits of a particular "classic" period outside of which a particlar instument may not be vintage. Without doing the necessary research and identifying the important variables that constitute a "classic" for a given period, I don't think that it would be reasonable to rule in Don's Rickenbacker as "vintage" and Andy's not. It is interesting to consider, however, whether vintage is categorical or dimensional or some intereaction between the two. As to who decides, I am not sure.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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I'd say Andy's 370-12 Byrd is no earlier than
'74-'75.I believe this was about when the narrow center neck laminate appeared on the 360s.Interestingly, at least from Ricks I saw in local stores in the mid 70s, you'd see 360s w/ the narrow stripe and 24 frets, but you'd have 21 fret 330s, that seemed to retain the wider strip a while longer.Brauers 12 is maybe kinda "rare" due to the Byrd wiring, but otherwise, My opinion is that once you got to 24 fret Ricks, forget the "collectable/vintage" stuff.BTW, Mark, when Dick would remove the remains of a neck out of
a 360, at least while I was there, he had No
mortising attachment for the drillpress, though what he did certainly accomplished that. He'd drop the drill press table down so that he could stand the guitar body up on end, then use a Forstner bit, and drill down into the neck pocket
to hog out the bulk of the remaining neck, then, use a sharp chisel and a mallet to clean out and square up the inside of the neck pocket.But back to the question on vintage; Yes, you can assess
the age of a guitar with pot codes and all that,
but for my own uses, all that means much to me is simply these items; 21fret, crushed pearl full width inlay,and that does it for me.If I could find a bare 360-12 carcass in unbroken condition,
I could get all the parts to make it into what is considered, visually, anyway, The Classic Rick 12..I don't personally get hung up on non original hardware, since you can get anything else you want new, or scout out used parts as well.And pickguards? Well,I sort of have That one covered, now, don't I?But forothers who obsess about Totally original condition, well, I'm Not the guy to talk to, since it matters not to me, though I appreciate where you are coming from.
'74-'75.I believe this was about when the narrow center neck laminate appeared on the 360s.Interestingly, at least from Ricks I saw in local stores in the mid 70s, you'd see 360s w/ the narrow stripe and 24 frets, but you'd have 21 fret 330s, that seemed to retain the wider strip a while longer.Brauers 12 is maybe kinda "rare" due to the Byrd wiring, but otherwise, My opinion is that once you got to 24 fret Ricks, forget the "collectable/vintage" stuff.BTW, Mark, when Dick would remove the remains of a neck out of
a 360, at least while I was there, he had No
mortising attachment for the drillpress, though what he did certainly accomplished that. He'd drop the drill press table down so that he could stand the guitar body up on end, then use a Forstner bit, and drill down into the neck pocket
to hog out the bulk of the remaining neck, then, use a sharp chisel and a mallet to clean out and square up the inside of the neck pocket.But back to the question on vintage; Yes, you can assess
the age of a guitar with pot codes and all that,
but for my own uses, all that means much to me is simply these items; 21fret, crushed pearl full width inlay,and that does it for me.If I could find a bare 360-12 carcass in unbroken condition,
I could get all the parts to make it into what is considered, visually, anyway, The Classic Rick 12..I don't personally get hung up on non original hardware, since you can get anything else you want new, or scout out used parts as well.And pickguards? Well,I sort of have That one covered, now, don't I?But forothers who obsess about Totally original condition, well, I'm Not the guy to talk to, since it matters not to me, though I appreciate where you are coming from.
Terry, and "Yes", I would consider Don Andrews
370-12 Byrd a "classic"/vintage model. Everything about it is correct in the sense I defined.To those that still have a problem with"Well, the jackplate isn't 60s", I guess all I have to say to that is kinda like the line, "Elvis is Dead.
Get over it." On the other hand, if Andrews never told you about the year his was,you likely wouldn't obsess about, Whoa, not a 60s ,is it?
Without seeing that jackplate , all you might have to tip you off generally[if you were detail oriented] would be "centerseam body" vs "3 piece
body".Based on examples I've seen, I speculate that the 2 piece centerseam 360s appeared possibly later '66, but definitely by '67.
370-12 Byrd a "classic"/vintage model. Everything about it is correct in the sense I defined.To those that still have a problem with"Well, the jackplate isn't 60s", I guess all I have to say to that is kinda like the line, "Elvis is Dead.
Get over it." On the other hand, if Andrews never told you about the year his was,you likely wouldn't obsess about, Whoa, not a 60s ,is it?
Without seeing that jackplate , all you might have to tip you off generally[if you were detail oriented] would be "centerseam body" vs "3 piece
body".Based on examples I've seen, I speculate that the 2 piece centerseam 360s appeared possibly later '66, but definitely by '67.
Terry, one last detail, and Mark can back me up,as he was there at Rick when the last of the "60s aesthetics " departed; Early to mid '73 was the timeframe when toaster PUS, Checked binding, and Crushed[sparkle] pearl/full width inlay, were being phased out.Examples I've seen with odd combinations of details include;
360 w full width "Poured Resin inlay", No checked binding,and toasters; a 4001 bass with the same detailing,and a few others that escape me, but
had odd mix and match of the classic and transitional features.
360 w full width "Poured Resin inlay", No checked binding,and toasters; a 4001 bass with the same detailing,and a few others that escape me, but
had odd mix and match of the classic and transitional features.
Thanks for these details Mark and Don. This type of information is most helpful in trying to pinpoint when certain techniques were in vogue at Rickenbacker. At the same time, it underscores the variability in the use of inlays, checkered binding and so on and is a reminder that one cannot always be sure that certain features either began or ended according to the information written in available texts.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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I am wondering if our "vintage ideal" has shifted somewhat with the introduction of the new "C" series by RIC. For those of us who couldn't find or afford a vintage Rickenbacker the focus in recent times was on the more afforable "V" series. The "C" Series has now taken "Vintage Reissue" a step higher in terms of precision and price. That our view of what is closest to vintage seems to have changed with people selling their V Series to pay for their new C Series instruments.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Interesting point Peter....What seems to be happening with new instruments that have a vintage 'look and feel' vs. the real mccoy is that the newly made product is approaching the originals as far as price is concerned. Mind you it is still MUCH cheaper to buy a C-series 325 or even a 325V63 than it is trying to go for an original due to their rarity, but other models are coming ever closer to acheiving parity in price with their '60s-'70s ancestors. Of course, being the 'old man' that I am, I gauge everything off what I paid for my first new(4001) Rickenbacker....$350.00 !!! Man, did I scrape and save!!! 