Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Modern years of Rickenbacker Guitars from 1984 to the present

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parker_knoll
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Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

Can someone explain the tonal difference between bigger magnet vs more winds?

More winds add mid and lower frequencies but as far as I'm aware do not remove highs. Would would i get by adding more magnetism? E.g. a bar magnet across the bottom under the pole pieces

I did get a toaster rewound to a hotter spec and it sounded great. Unfortunately I lost that guitar. Now I've got another toaster, but before I send it off to get rewound, I'm wondering about the cheaper and simpler option of boosting the magnet.

Thanks in advance for advice and knowledge
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weemac
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by weemac »

Boosting magnetic power will make it louder and clangier (if that's a word)
But at the expense of natural compression and even sustain..
If you want more mids plus a vintage look do a toaster cover conversion on a modern hi-gain.
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parker_knoll
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

No, I disagree. I had a toaster rewound before and the result was great - very different from a high gain. It retained the highs and hard attack but was fuller than a trad toaster. I was very happy with that as a neck pickup whereas the Higain had been muddy and lacked top end.

I will just buy a magnet and try it and report back.
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paologregorio
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by paologregorio »

I may be uniquely experienced to answer this question:

I have a couple of guitars with the 12 K “hot” toaster pickups.

The bridge and neck pickups are both 12K but the bridge is not as loud as the neck pickup, either in combination, or when switch back-and-forth between the neck and bridge.

To boost the bridge pick up signal, I added a bar magnet from a Broken hi again pickup to the underside of each guitar’s bridge toaster.The results were the bridge pickup was louder. I don’t think there was any change in the tonal range. No adhesive is needed; the magnets stick to the underside of the pickup through magnetism.

I have also had custom wound bridge toaster coils “overwound” to 14K and 15K, and even 16K, though I have not installed the 16K pick up in a Rick yet. The “overwound” 14K-16K toasters have noticeably more mid range, which, in my opinion, is a big plus for a Rickenbacker.

Full disclosure; I am also of the “heretical” opinion that hot toaster sound better than Dcattereounds In BOTH 12 string Ricks, and in six-string Ricks.

If you are having custom “hot” toaster coils wound, buy Alnico 3 magnets; they sound sweeter/warmer. There are a couple sources domestically; Magnetic Hold is one domestic supplier, the other escapes me at the moment. Others can probably chime in, no pun intended, with the name that escapes me.
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parker_knoll
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

paologregorio wrote:The bridge and neck pickups are both 12K but the bridge is not as loud as the neck pickup, either in combination, or when switch back-and-forth between the neck and bridge.
Yeah, the bridge will usually be quieter due to greater string tension, hence bridge pups usually being a bit hotter.
paologregorio wrote: To boost the bridge pick up signal, I added a bar magnet from a Broken hi again pickup to the underside of each guitar’s bridge toaster.The results were the bridge pickup was louder. I don’t think there was any change in the tonal range. No adhesive is needed; the magnets stick to the underside of the pickup through magnetism.

I have also had custom wound bridge toaster coils “overwound” to 14K and 15K, and even 16K, though I have not installed the 16K pick up in a Rick yet. The “overwound” 14K-16K toasters have noticeably more mid range, which, in my opinion, is a big plus for a Rickenbacker.
Thanks. I had mine wound up to quite a bit less than that - I wanted it to match the bridge Higain at about 10k, so it probably went from 5k up to about 8.5k. It sounded way better to my tastes, though. The stock toasters really are the trebliest pickups I've ever heard - no bass can get through at all, hence when they're used on Ric basses you don't actually hear any bass notes, just upper harmonics, but that's the sound and it works well in some contexts.
paologregorio wrote: If you are having custom “hot” toaster coils wound, buy Alnico 3 magnets; they sound sweeter/warmer. There are a couple sources domestically; Magnetic Hold is one domestic supplier, the other escapes me at the moment. Others can probably chime in, no pun intended, with the name that escapes me.
Not a custom pickup, just rewinding an existing toaster - it's actually pretty cheap.
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jps
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by jps »

parker_knoll wrote:The stock toasters really are the trebliest pickups I've ever heard - no bass can get through at all, hence when they're used on Ric basses you don't actually hear any bass notes, just upper harmonics, but that's the sound and it works well in some contexts.
You kidding, right. :roll:
parker_knoll
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

jps wrote:
parker_knoll wrote:The stock toasters really are the trebliest pickups I've ever heard - no bass can get through at all, hence when they're used on Ric basses you don't actually hear any bass notes, just upper harmonics, but that's the sound and it works well in some contexts.
You kidding, right. :roll:
Actually, I'm exaggerating but not kidding. In rock bass a lot/most of the sound is upper harmonic rather than fundamentals, perhaps reaching its extreme in post-punk. Compare say a dub bass sound which is almost all fundamental frequencies. So you actually get a lot of bass sounds that have basically no bass in them. The bass is perceived rather than actually there.
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jps
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by jps »

parker_knoll wrote:
jps wrote:
parker_knoll wrote:The stock toasters really are the trebliest pickups I've ever heard - no bass can get through at all, hence when they're used on Ric basses you don't actually hear any bass notes, just upper harmonics, but that's the sound and it works well in some contexts.
You kidding, right. :roll:
Actually, I'm exaggerating but not kidding. In rock bass a lot/most of the sound is upper harmonic rather than fundamentals, perhaps reaching its extreme in post-punk. Compare say a dub bass sound which is almost all fundamental frequencies. So you actually get a lot of bass sounds that have basically no bass in them. The bass is perceived rather than actually there.
Okay, whatever you think.
parker_knoll
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

It's not just what I think x
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wim
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by wim »

In the early 2000's I analysed the frequency spectrum of both my 74 4001's pickups and came to the following conclusion:
The ground note E at 40 hz is there, but due to human ear characteristics you will hear the first and second octave harmonics dominantly. Being 80 and 160 hz.
The neck pickup (high gain) did not produce that much harmonics at all at the 1/2 inch position, which led to it being rather silent in comparison to the bridge unit, but the 40 hz is actually there.

The resulting graphics should be around on the forum somewhere.

Bass equalisation is found mostly at around 100 hz in standard hifi equipment anyway.
Most speakers can't even reproduce a 40 hz tone decently.
parker_knoll
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Re: Toaster/hot toaster question: magnet or winds

Post by parker_knoll »

Exactly, thanks Wim.

If you look at sound like, for example, JJ Burnel of The Stranglers in the classic early period, he plays through a guitar cab that emphasised the midrange and put out almost no bass frequencies, and yet we hear it as a bass sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqllpnyWrY[/youtube]
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