325 12-string intonation issues

[yettoblaster]

Howdy,
I love my 325V63, and have grown accustomed to its shorter scale length. I have no tuning or intonation problems with it since immobilizing the tremolo tailpiece.
A 330/12 I had only required the 6 saddle bridge for intonation to be acceptable to me, even up the neck.

Someday I would like a 12-string version of 325. I realize they are rare.
Since I prefer thicker strings on short scale length guitars and probably would have difficulty finding packaged sets, I would resort to experimenting with custom individual string gauges.

Is there a limit to a 12 saddle bridge setup's capabilities?

Am I likely to exceed any specifications in going too heavy?

From my experience with the six string 325 I know the frets are precision enough to support excellent intonation despite the more critical tolerances required.

Is there any reason a short scale 12 string can't be considered a serious instrument?

[Mark]

The intonation is really noticable on the low E course/pair as they are off set about .065.
The A's are almost identical in length,the b's and the high E's are identical...the real source of intonation is the G and D courses.
These are offset about .040 to .075 depending on scale and the string gauge.

Can the 325-12 play in tune.Yes but you must use big strings and have a light touch.Any sideways movement will compound the intonation problem and with light strings will drive you crazy.If not you then the people you play with.

"Can a short scale be considerd a serious instrument?"
Sure ...it's all personal preferance.I play instruments that my friends think are really weird.So what ...if it floats your boat go for it.

Me ...I own four 12 strings and 2 of them I made.I made them because I could not find commercially what I wanted .Lucky for me I know how to do it.

"Is there a limit to the 12 string capabilities?"

Well yes and no.
I haven't seen it not function for the intonation factor.You might move the bridge away from the neck about 3/32" to get more adjustment out of the saddles.This will allow you to not do what Roger McGuinn had to do to his 12 string that is posted at his website.He removed the low E spring and it is now jammed all the way back to the frame to be in tune.
Other than that it should be fine.

I prefer a 24&3/4" scale at the least but again this is all personal preferance.

[yettoblaster]

Thanks Mark,
I'm encouraged (all I need now is money and luck)!
Big strings are OK by me.
Not sure I'd ever use it in an ensemble, just an intriguing project for Sunday afternoon couch plunking.
You never know though. Sometimes what I come up with during couch sessions winds up in "show & tell" jams.

[yettoblaster]

Oh man!
Checked a couple prices. FORGET THAT!

I reacquired my 330/12, and will use your good info applied to IT!
Tks.

[Mark]

Good choice,enjoy it.

There are a couple of things you might check out while you are buying/selecting a 12 string .If the shop you are going to has a 360-12 and a 330-12 then check out the string spacing at the nut.

Take a pencil/pen and a piece of paper and lay it over the strings on the fretboard .Jam it up against the nut and make 4 hash marks to indicate the location of both sets of E strings (first and sixth courses) .Then lay this on the other model and compare.I'll bet that the spacing is the same ....but with the 330-12 you will notice that if you want to widen the string spacing you have more room to do so as there is no binding and the frets run all the way to the edge of the fretboard.
I do this for lots of Rick 12 string owners.It easy to do on a 330-12 as all you do to get the maximum width is recut a nut.
On a 360-12 you need to refret and refinish the fretboard (or leave it bare) and the frets need to sit on top of the binding when they are installed.CF Martin does this to all there bound necks as does Larrivee and many boutique makers.This will give you the same amount of finger room.

If this is not an issue ...then enjoy it and jangle away.

[yettoblaster]

Good stuff Mark. Thanks again.

Yeah, I'm not much for bound necks. Expensive to refret and all.
I like doing my own work, so the thought of under-cutting 24 frets to accommodate binding doesn't thrill me. I have only done unbound necks for myself.
My next door neighbor is Jim Patterson: sorta the Father of guitarmaking here in Santa Cruz, Ca., since he started making in '72 as a hobby.
He showed me (as well as Richard Hoover, David Morse, et al) the bound neck thing. Sheesh, that's a lot of work!
Jim also wrote "Pearl Inlaying." Which is still carried by StewMac, and was one of the first such books for guitarmakers. It was once The Bible, but there are so many now.

I actually am OK with Rickenbackers as is. It takes me a few minutes to adapt to the narrow or short (325) squish. But after a song or so I'm OK.
Sorta appreciate that I have to pay attention to technique, as my chops are mucho sloppy these days!
Hadn't realized how "fiddley" my left hand was getting 'till I had to "straighten" out and be more parallel with the frets (an old compliant of my jazz teacher -about my technique- decades ago).

What I really like is the narrower right hand spacing for fingerstyle work. On acoustics I like wider (like OM width) for digging in, but this morning before work I played Travis style, etc., on the 330/12, just floating across the double strings. Somehow my nails were just right today, and I sailed to work gassed!