Intonation and String Gauge
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Intonation and String Gauge
If the neck is adjusted properly and the bridge has been adjusted as far as it can to what extent can changing the gauge of the string be helpful in improving the intonation. While this may not be a practical way to go, could a string that is slightly flat, for example, be brought into intonation by increasing its gauge?
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Mark
This question was one that I played around with due to the original style tailpiece on a Gibson SG special.This is also the Pete Townsend Signature guitar currently in production.(Wow!I wonder if Fender has a Pete model coming up soon)
Anyway...This tailpiece is cast for a wound G string and there is NO/ZERO way for a plain G string of any gauge to be in tune.
Well as an test of strings 2 of the guys that worked for me were given a box of Ernie Ball singles and 1 hour and 30 minutes to figure out what gauge of strings would really work with this thing/bridge .
they started with setting the points of the bridge so that the high E string contact point was the same distance as the distance from the edge of the nut to the center of the 12th fret plus 1/16" on the treble side and the nut to the 12th fret plus 5/32" on the low E string.
They knew that the G/3rd string had to be a wound string so they started with a .018.This was the lightest wound string in the ernie ball bow and tried a .011 to .052 set as a starting point.
They wasted a lot of strings but got a set.
I don't remember what the gauges were but....IT FELT HORRIBLE! ! !
As to the specific question...Why not just adjust the saddle to be intonated.
Now before you start cranking away...you need to check a few things.One is it set up properly?go to the Mark set up check list.
If it is ...how old are the strings ?under 3 hours of playing time? Curl the wound strings and look for divits where the frets would touch the string.If there are divits then don't intonate them.The second that you put new strings on they will need to be reintonated.
Always intonate with new strings.
If the frets are not crowned then they need to be to assure the closest of tolarance in the fret placement.
With low worn frets the breaking point on the fret is no longer centered and the intonation will be wrong by however much off center this point is.So if the first fret is flat on top and the flat part is .040 wide then you are off by .020 at the first fret.Meaning that you have in effect moved the fretboard away from the first fret by .020 and all the rest of the frets are compounding this issue.
Case in point;Gibson in the 1970's use a fret wire that was .036 tall and .115 wide.This was the measurement on the unleveled fret wire.After lweveling ...they were about .030 tallwith a flat ridge across the top.Since then these frets have worn to the point where I have seen the breaking point off by .060!!!!There is no way to get these stock frets in tune ...time for a refret.
I'm sure that this is info overload but if you need some clarification ....let me know.
Final answer...there is more to intonation than .001 and you must address the whole issue.
Anyway...This tailpiece is cast for a wound G string and there is NO/ZERO way for a plain G string of any gauge to be in tune.
Well as an test of strings 2 of the guys that worked for me were given a box of Ernie Ball singles and 1 hour and 30 minutes to figure out what gauge of strings would really work with this thing/bridge .
they started with setting the points of the bridge so that the high E string contact point was the same distance as the distance from the edge of the nut to the center of the 12th fret plus 1/16" on the treble side and the nut to the 12th fret plus 5/32" on the low E string.
They knew that the G/3rd string had to be a wound string so they started with a .018.This was the lightest wound string in the ernie ball bow and tried a .011 to .052 set as a starting point.
They wasted a lot of strings but got a set.
I don't remember what the gauges were but....IT FELT HORRIBLE! ! !
As to the specific question...Why not just adjust the saddle to be intonated.
Now before you start cranking away...you need to check a few things.One is it set up properly?go to the Mark set up check list.
If it is ...how old are the strings ?under 3 hours of playing time? Curl the wound strings and look for divits where the frets would touch the string.If there are divits then don't intonate them.The second that you put new strings on they will need to be reintonated.
Always intonate with new strings.
If the frets are not crowned then they need to be to assure the closest of tolarance in the fret placement.
With low worn frets the breaking point on the fret is no longer centered and the intonation will be wrong by however much off center this point is.So if the first fret is flat on top and the flat part is .040 wide then you are off by .020 at the first fret.Meaning that you have in effect moved the fretboard away from the first fret by .020 and all the rest of the frets are compounding this issue.
Case in point;Gibson in the 1970's use a fret wire that was .036 tall and .115 wide.This was the measurement on the unleveled fret wire.After lweveling ...they were about .030 tallwith a flat ridge across the top.Since then these frets have worn to the point where I have seen the breaking point off by .060!!!!There is no way to get these stock frets in tune ...time for a refret.
I'm sure that this is info overload but if you need some clarification ....let me know.
Final answer...there is more to intonation than .001 and you must address the whole issue.
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Mark
one more thing ....if the bridge is maxed out on the travel of the saddle,then move the bridge away from the neck about 3/32" on both sides.This will center up the saddles so that it will work for every brand and gauge of string.The saddles will no longer be jammed all the way back (like Roger McGuinn's personal guitar.What if he changes gauges...is he out of luck and does he call it the quirkiness of the guitar?
I hope not .
Move the bridge.It's not that far and it will not be seen by anyone.
I owned a Gibson ES-345 1959 model, and it had the bridge in the wrong place.
I just moved a bridge on a 1971 Fender Jazz Bass for David Axt(a frequent contributor to the ALT Guitar Rickenbacker news group).It was off by 1/8"and needed to be moved towards the neck!
All makers do or have done this.I don't know why ...but it is so.
Since CNC tooling has come into use I haven't seen it on any brands except for Korean made guitars and they are getting better .
I hope not .
Move the bridge.It's not that far and it will not be seen by anyone.
I owned a Gibson ES-345 1959 model, and it had the bridge in the wrong place.
I just moved a bridge on a 1971 Fender Jazz Bass for David Axt(a frequent contributor to the ALT Guitar Rickenbacker news group).It was off by 1/8"and needed to be moved towards the neck!
All makers do or have done this.I don't know why ...but it is so.
Since CNC tooling has come into use I haven't seen it on any brands except for Korean made guitars and they are getting better .
Thanks Mark for this information. As a followup, the fundamental question I had was simply, can I improve the intonation of any given string (that is flat at perhaps the 12th fret) by increasing the gauge where the intonation is out marginally. I do appreciate that a bridge adjustment is preferred and allows the user much greater flexibility with regard to using different gauges of strings. But in some cases would an increase from a .018 to a .019 be helpful in sharpening the pitch?
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
-
Mark
Yes it would but ...you are turning the adjustment screw about 1/2 to one full turn to intonate it.
If the issue of intonation is because after a few weeks of a new set of strings suddenly appearing to be out of tune with them selves (this is after strobe tuning) then the issue is really, that you have worn strings.
Now if you have never had your intonation set by someone with a strobetuner(the cute little quartz tuners are great to tune the open notes but their accuraccy pales next to a Strobe tuner Especially when setting intonation),then have it done!
looking for the ultimate intonation by changing string gauges is like looking for something in the dark.TURN the light on!
Now if you are also refering to an acoustic with a fixed saddle.Here is the way to check to see if the maker actually put the saddle in about the correct place to begin with .And this is for anyones.Even classic guitars that your favourite guys used back when you were a teenager.
The measurement from the edge of the nut(end of the fretboard)to the center of the 12th fret plus 1/16th" on the treble side and plus 5/32nd" on the bass side .Then move this measurement to the center of the 12th fret and this measurement will be somewhere over the body.This gives you the place where the CENTER of the saddle should be.This will get you within tolarances .Plus or minus .015 on either side. If this is wrong then your bridge is in the wrong place.PERIOD .
It doesn't matter when it was made or by whom or what famous guy/gal used one...this is the measurement.This is also the way to check electric guitars.
Basses are another matter.
Most of the pre WWII CF Martins are wrong.
ALL of the Gibson are wrong,especially the ones with the height adjustable saddles.The compensation is way overdone.
I had to take (a few years back ) a 1939 blonde J-200 that was dead mint and make a new bridge so that the saddle could be placed correctly.Great guitar if you ask me and a true classic.But the saddle ,if moved on the original rosewood base, would have been on the front edge of the rosewood and the stress from the string would eventually caused the rosewood to crack.So I remade a rosewood base/bridge and added a 1/8" to the front of it .Moved the saddle and for the first time ever (with a custom compensated saddle )it was finally in tune.The owner thinks that I am amazing............Not really ,I just have to thank Roger McGuinn for the intonation bug that he put in my ear in 1974.Thanks Roger where ever you are.He was bugged by his 12 strings being out of tune and then we talked about acoustics and why are they out of tune.But that is worthy of another posting ...........maybe
If the issue of intonation is because after a few weeks of a new set of strings suddenly appearing to be out of tune with them selves (this is after strobe tuning) then the issue is really, that you have worn strings.
Now if you have never had your intonation set by someone with a strobetuner(the cute little quartz tuners are great to tune the open notes but their accuraccy pales next to a Strobe tuner Especially when setting intonation),then have it done!
looking for the ultimate intonation by changing string gauges is like looking for something in the dark.TURN the light on!
Now if you are also refering to an acoustic with a fixed saddle.Here is the way to check to see if the maker actually put the saddle in about the correct place to begin with .And this is for anyones.Even classic guitars that your favourite guys used back when you were a teenager.
The measurement from the edge of the nut(end of the fretboard)to the center of the 12th fret plus 1/16th" on the treble side and plus 5/32nd" on the bass side .Then move this measurement to the center of the 12th fret and this measurement will be somewhere over the body.This gives you the place where the CENTER of the saddle should be.This will get you within tolarances .Plus or minus .015 on either side. If this is wrong then your bridge is in the wrong place.PERIOD .
It doesn't matter when it was made or by whom or what famous guy/gal used one...this is the measurement.This is also the way to check electric guitars.
Basses are another matter.
Most of the pre WWII CF Martins are wrong.
ALL of the Gibson are wrong,especially the ones with the height adjustable saddles.The compensation is way overdone.
I had to take (a few years back ) a 1939 blonde J-200 that was dead mint and make a new bridge so that the saddle could be placed correctly.Great guitar if you ask me and a true classic.But the saddle ,if moved on the original rosewood base, would have been on the front edge of the rosewood and the stress from the string would eventually caused the rosewood to crack.So I remade a rosewood base/bridge and added a 1/8" to the front of it .Moved the saddle and for the first time ever (with a custom compensated saddle )it was finally in tune.The owner thinks that I am amazing............Not really ,I just have to thank Roger McGuinn for the intonation bug that he put in my ear in 1974.Thanks Roger where ever you are.He was bugged by his 12 strings being out of tune and then we talked about acoustics and why are they out of tune.But that is worthy of another posting ...........maybe