Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Setup, repair and restoration of Rickenbacker Instruments

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rcboals
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Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by rcboals »

I am wanting to save this 65 or 66 Rickenbacker. I have some skills as far as wood working and think I do pretty good. I have not really done much painting and finishing work. I did two teles in spray can deft lacquer and stain and they turned out pretty nice. Anyway here goes. Link for my first tele build also one more file in photobucket for my second Twangmaster Two which didn't go as nice as the first
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/r ... 1QQtppZZ20

1. Can I get a professional high gloss finish myself without spending more than it would cost to have a pro do it?

2. I have tried searching to find a step by step instructions specific to Gloss Black. Haven't found it yet.

3. If you have been their done that with a high gloss solid finish I'm real interested in any help you can share with me. Links or personal experience, Which products are best to use etc. etc. etc.

Attached is a Pic of the subject of where I am now with it in the striped stage, and a link to my project here, also link to photo bucket album.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=406719
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/r ... 2QQtppZZ20
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teb
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by teb »

It can be done, though I doubt spray cans will ever do it well. But first...........is that the wood grain that we're seeing on the top? If it is, it's unusually cool and it would seem a real shame to cover it up with black paint. Somebody like Paul (Jingle Jangle - the "Burst-Master") could do something really amazing with that grain.

As for black, I painted the replacement body I built for my 2030 out in my garage in the winter at 40 degrees or less using a $25 Harbor Freight spray gun and the pancake compressor for my nail guns. I'm not really set up to use the same sort of catalyzed varnishes that the pros use. My current favorite is water-based Enduro Pre-Cat Urethane from General Finishes. It isn't as tough as a pro finish, but after several years, it seems to be holding up fine (and as well or better than some of the lacquers on my old guitars did). The 2030 got a couple coats of clear as a sealer, two or three coats of black tinted varnish for color, and then about 19 coats of clear on top of that. I let it harden and shrink for about a week and then sanded it with a block, wet-sanding paper and Micromesh, starting about 400 grit and running all the way up to 12,000 grit. Final buffing was done with a rag and polishing compound. I don't have a buffer. If I did, I could have skipped many of the super-fine sanding grits. Is it the ideal way to finish a guitar? No. Is it as good as a pro refin job? No. But if you want it bad enough, have a good eye and can do high quality work, you can do a pretty decent job of it. Works for clear finishes, too.
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rcboals
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by rcboals »

Yes that grain on the top is awesome and if that nameless moron hadn't of routed big huge humbucker routs with a drill bill the fireglo would be the way to go. MY only other option to keep it looking like 1966 stock is the black I beleive. I had thoughts of a reverse burst but then it wouldn't look like a vintage stock Ric of the mid sixties era.I know a few professional high buck auto painters and I believe I can get them to spray this in their paint booths for next to nothing since I refer a lot of body work their way in my insurance business. I would just furnish the lacquer and labor for wet sanding and buffing. I bought Sherwin Williams OPEX black it only comes in semi gloss nitro. If it needs to have more gloss we will just just spray clear coats of gloss nitro over it.
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LenMinNJ
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by LenMinNJ »

Once you fill the enlarged pickup routes, if you simply paint it, eventually the traces of the filled areas will telegraph through any paint coat.

The way to solve that problem is to put a new layer of something solid between the current top and the finish coat. What's commonly used is fiberglass veil cloth and a resin coating, or a thin wood veneer like 1/64" plywood adhered with a non-water-based adhesive.

The cloth veil goes on better over compound curves like the tailpiece carve, but the veneer is simpler to apply.

Once they're on the top, you can finish the top normally.

Keep in mind that a mirror gloss black finish is one of the hardest to get perfect.
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teb
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by teb »

Would you happen to be the same Len Moskowitz who designed that nifty little bass speaker a few years ago? I had a serious urge to build one a while back but could never find the parts needed. Any updates with currently available components (assuming you're the same person)?
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by LenMinNJ »

teb wrote:Would you happen to be the same Len Moskowitz who designed that nifty little bass speaker a few years ago? I had a serious urge to build one a while back but could never find the parts needed. Any updates with currently available components (assuming you're the same person)?
Yes, that's me. Thanks for remembering.

You might call the folks at Madisound to see if they have a replacement for the SEAS woofer I spec'ed.

I *love* that black bass of yours!
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teb
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by teb »

It might make a good winter project once work slows down. The last cabinet I built came out nice and was fun to build, but with an E140, double baffle construction and 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood, it's kind of a beast to take anywhere.
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by jingle_jangle »

LenMinNJ wrote:Once you fill the enlarged pickup routes, if you simply paint it, eventually the traces of the filled areas will telegraph through any paint coat.

The way to solve that problem is to put a new layer of something solid between the current top and the finish coat. What's commonly used is fiberglass veil cloth and a resin coating, or a thin wood veneer like 1/64" plywood adhered with a non-water-based adhesive.

The cloth veil goes on better over compound curves like the tailpiece carve, but the veneer is simpler to apply.

Once they're on the top, you can finish the top normally.

Keep in mind that a mirror gloss black finish is one of the hardest to get perfect.
Gosh, Len, that's me, word for word...

Except I would never use 1/64 veneer with non-water based adhesive to repair any Rickenbacker, as it would eventually buckle...and there's a trick to using veil cloth, otherwise the patch will telegraph through it, too... :wink:
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teb
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by teb »

My 1/64" veneer applied with non-water-based adhesive (WEST System 105/205 boat building epoxy) is certainly never going to buckle. It's the same technique I used to veneer this boat - and it sat outside year round under a canvas cover for five years while I owned it without any veneer problems. It's all a matter of using the proper goo.
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by jingle_jangle »

teb wrote:My 1/64" veneer applied with non-water-based adhesive (WEST System 105/205 boat building epoxy) is certainly never going to buckle. It's the same technique I used to veneer this boat - and it sat outside year round under a canvas cover for five years while I owned it without any veneer problems. It's all a matter of using the proper goo.
No doubt, and I trust your skills and word, Todd...the term "non-water-based adhesive" is too general, I feel. It could mean contact cement (a no-no for veneering though some recommend it!), polyurethanes and epoxies as well as cyanoacrylates and god nose what else.

In an effort to avoid this I've used laminating epoxy under ideal conditions over a clean rough-sanded wood surface, to attach maple veneer to one of my experimental bodies. Six years later, it's buckling...now I'll try the West--there's a West Marine store down the block. 8)
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teb
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by teb »

Yes, the standard contact cement thing for veneer may work for certain woodworking situations but even so, it's pretty hard to justify from a structural perspective and in many ways it just doesn't make much sense. One thing I found with such thin veneer and epoxy resin was that a certain amount of saturation, all the way through the veneer would happen. This is great in terms of bond strength, but not so great for overcoating with varnish. You run a pretty serious risk of ending up with blotchy color, depending on whether or not an area had completely saturated. The answer is generally to go in, post-lamination, and coat the top surface with epoxy as well, finishing the saturation process. This takes two to three coats of resin and unlike varnish, epoxy doesn't flow out flat and smooth. After giving it about a week to finish curing, it can then be sanded flat and varnished. These shots show the mandolin body after epoxy coating the top and then finished after sanding the epoxy, varnishing, sanding the varnish and polishing. For boats, I'll leave a pretty heavy layer of epoxy on the surface before finally varnishing it for UV protection. For guitars, I don't leave much resin at all. It often has kind of a plastic look if you leave a thick build-up that I'm not fond of. The varnish just seems to do that job better.

WEST epoxy resin is part #105. There are several hardeners available. #205 is normal, fast hardener, #206 is slow hardener for jobs where more pot life is needed. #207 would probably be the best bet for guitar work. It's medium speed and specifically made for the best clarity on natural finishes and also contains a bit of UV filter. It's the one I would normally use for these projects, but if I don't happen to have any on hand, I'm usually too cheap to invest in a can of it for such small projects and use whatever I have.
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LenMinNJ
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Re: Gloss Black Finish Help The Dummy Advice

Post by LenMinNJ »

jingle_jangle wrote:
Gosh, Len, that's me, word for word...
I learn from the best!

When I mentioned 1/64" veneer I usually use the kind of birch plywood that the model airplane folks use to sheet their wings. Being that it's real ply and not a single-layer veneer, not much can soak through it, it doesn't buckle easily, and the top surface is usually a very uniform and clear grain. It makes it easy to finish with an opaque color. I don't know if I'd use it for a transparent finish, especially at the edges where you might sand it and the layers would show through. It cuts with a sharp blade like butter and it's easy to get a straight edge.

They have a 1/32" plywood too.

Todd: Thanks for the tip about the West boat epoxy.

http://www.midwestproducts.com/store/pr ... ywood.aspx
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