Last weekend I went home and jammed with some friends on my '93 330. I noticed that the guitar was a lot more lively and resonant than the '07 and '08 Rickenbackers I've been playing at DC-area music stores. I can only surmise that, aside from slight construction differences, the difference is that the guitar is now old enough to have a noticeably "sweeter" tone than a new instrument.
What is the physical process by which wood in a guitar ages and produces a better sound? Is it moisture escaping the wood or is there more going on here?
My roommate is a concert violinist. He says that the tone of a violin (or any instrument) will improve as it is played - in other words, the more you use it, the better it sounds. Any truth to that?
Wood Aging Process
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Wood Aging Process
This is a fascinating topic, and one that's interested me, as it seems both intuitive and highly subjective, that any wooden instrument's tone could be affected by age, and by how instruments that were played frequently could exhibit better tone than ones played infrequently, or not at all.
Toby Faber's book "Stradivari's Genius" was the first reading I ever did on the topic of vintage stringed instruments, from the standpoint of how one man or group of men could set a standard for construction of instruments that survives to the present day, 250 years after the end of the Cremonese Golden Age of violin and viola luthiery.
I was led to this by the father of one of my students, who is one of the world's best-known dealers in vintage Strads, Amatis, Guarneris, and copies from both modern times and the so-called "golden age" of Stradivarius replicas, the mid-to-late 19th century. He stopped in on his way to demonstrate three Cremonese violins to potential local customers, both collectors and amateur players, and one symphony player. We discussed my construction of the Jazz-Bo (which was then being prepped for finishing), and then he opened a smallish rectangular case of odd proportion that he was carrying. It held two Stradivari and one Amati.
He handed me a Strad (I did not know just then what it was--it just looked old), and I took it in hand gently (I thought), holding it as one would hold a dinner plate; thumb on top of the body near the tailpiece, fingers splayed out across the back. He smiled and explained that one must not hold an 18th century violin in this manner; the heat of one's fingers would soften the varnish and leave fingerprints; one should grip the neck instead! The neck was roughly a third the cross-section of a Rickenbacker mandolin; with its curly grain it looks like it would snap, but it is quite sturdy, and what's more, the body feels virtually weightless. Too, the neck of any 18th century violin will have had the varnish worn away a long time since.
We talked about this, and he then informed me as I completed my inspection an handed it back to him, that this was a Stradivarius instrument. Gulp.
The Faber book says a good deal about varnish, but not a lot about the wood used, at least from the perspective of aging. It does hint, though, at mechanical and climatic fatigue being responsible for the decrease in tone and playability of many Cremonese instruments. Sort of like the metal fatigue that has spelled failure to airframes in aircraft. I saw this as a clue that, not only finish was involved in the process of an instrument acquiring its tone, but also the wood itself. Beyond selection of species and cut, there is the process of working the wood which can affect, not only the instrument's ability to "come of age", but also the disability of aging: an instrument built too feebly or out of balance will age too rapidly, and its own "golden years" will be abbreviated.
Eventually my reading led me to this paper:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf
This is an abstract of a three-year study done in Australia, of the effects of aging and playing upon two specially-constructed twin violins. One, the control, was kept upon completion in a museum-type environment of highly-regulated temperature and humiditry; the other was played frequently and by many players over the three-year period.
Blind listening tests were performed. The conclusion? Counter-intuitive: there was no discernable difference in what the audiences heard from the twin instruments.
Wait a minute--three years? That's nothing, I thought. Studies have shown measurable differences in the dampening effects of the wood itself upon the music played on an instrument, due to excitation of the cellular structure of the wood fiber itself. Moreover, these effects are both good and bad--initially, they help the wood to "bloom" and sweeten the sound as it simultaneously aids in volume and projection (sometimes unpredictably, it must be admitted). Later on in an instrument's playing life, the wood can almost sound fatigued; seems entirely reasonable.
Longer-term studying of this phenomenon and related issues are surely in order.
Effects of finish are another topic entirely. Suffice to say that as more and more finish is piled on, the potential for tone change--primarily and most demonstrably in thin-walled, hollow-bodied instruments--becomes more dramatic. The natural response of the wood can be sharpened and deadened, and there is a fine balance that must be maintained.
When I complete an acoustic Rickenbacker, I string it and play it, then leave it strung for a period of time ranging from a few days through a few months until it's ready to begin the finishing process. The first coats of sealer make some difference in tone. I'd describe it as "focusing" the tone and crispening it. Laying on repeated coats of urethane clear, yields a guitar that sounds quite dead until the finish is mechanically flatted and thinned by about 2/3. Shrinkage pulls the coating further down onto the wood and into the pores, at least on the front. By the time the guitar is shipped, it's beginning to develop a tonal character, but is not yet in balance; there are bass and lower midrange frequencies and harmonics to be developed; this happens as the wood "loosens" up with frequent playing.
I might add that this is empirical, not theoretical; strictly from my own observations. If anyone out there can give me a bibliographical reference on this, I'd be most grateful.
That's a short answer. It would make a fascinating book for those of us who are obsessed with sound and music, and the craft and technology that creates both.
Toby Faber's book "Stradivari's Genius" was the first reading I ever did on the topic of vintage stringed instruments, from the standpoint of how one man or group of men could set a standard for construction of instruments that survives to the present day, 250 years after the end of the Cremonese Golden Age of violin and viola luthiery.
I was led to this by the father of one of my students, who is one of the world's best-known dealers in vintage Strads, Amatis, Guarneris, and copies from both modern times and the so-called "golden age" of Stradivarius replicas, the mid-to-late 19th century. He stopped in on his way to demonstrate three Cremonese violins to potential local customers, both collectors and amateur players, and one symphony player. We discussed my construction of the Jazz-Bo (which was then being prepped for finishing), and then he opened a smallish rectangular case of odd proportion that he was carrying. It held two Stradivari and one Amati.
He handed me a Strad (I did not know just then what it was--it just looked old), and I took it in hand gently (I thought), holding it as one would hold a dinner plate; thumb on top of the body near the tailpiece, fingers splayed out across the back. He smiled and explained that one must not hold an 18th century violin in this manner; the heat of one's fingers would soften the varnish and leave fingerprints; one should grip the neck instead! The neck was roughly a third the cross-section of a Rickenbacker mandolin; with its curly grain it looks like it would snap, but it is quite sturdy, and what's more, the body feels virtually weightless. Too, the neck of any 18th century violin will have had the varnish worn away a long time since.
We talked about this, and he then informed me as I completed my inspection an handed it back to him, that this was a Stradivarius instrument. Gulp.
The Faber book says a good deal about varnish, but not a lot about the wood used, at least from the perspective of aging. It does hint, though, at mechanical and climatic fatigue being responsible for the decrease in tone and playability of many Cremonese instruments. Sort of like the metal fatigue that has spelled failure to airframes in aircraft. I saw this as a clue that, not only finish was involved in the process of an instrument acquiring its tone, but also the wood itself. Beyond selection of species and cut, there is the process of working the wood which can affect, not only the instrument's ability to "come of age", but also the disability of aging: an instrument built too feebly or out of balance will age too rapidly, and its own "golden years" will be abbreviated.
Eventually my reading led me to this paper:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf
This is an abstract of a three-year study done in Australia, of the effects of aging and playing upon two specially-constructed twin violins. One, the control, was kept upon completion in a museum-type environment of highly-regulated temperature and humiditry; the other was played frequently and by many players over the three-year period.
Blind listening tests were performed. The conclusion? Counter-intuitive: there was no discernable difference in what the audiences heard from the twin instruments.
Wait a minute--three years? That's nothing, I thought. Studies have shown measurable differences in the dampening effects of the wood itself upon the music played on an instrument, due to excitation of the cellular structure of the wood fiber itself. Moreover, these effects are both good and bad--initially, they help the wood to "bloom" and sweeten the sound as it simultaneously aids in volume and projection (sometimes unpredictably, it must be admitted). Later on in an instrument's playing life, the wood can almost sound fatigued; seems entirely reasonable.
Longer-term studying of this phenomenon and related issues are surely in order.
Effects of finish are another topic entirely. Suffice to say that as more and more finish is piled on, the potential for tone change--primarily and most demonstrably in thin-walled, hollow-bodied instruments--becomes more dramatic. The natural response of the wood can be sharpened and deadened, and there is a fine balance that must be maintained.
When I complete an acoustic Rickenbacker, I string it and play it, then leave it strung for a period of time ranging from a few days through a few months until it's ready to begin the finishing process. The first coats of sealer make some difference in tone. I'd describe it as "focusing" the tone and crispening it. Laying on repeated coats of urethane clear, yields a guitar that sounds quite dead until the finish is mechanically flatted and thinned by about 2/3. Shrinkage pulls the coating further down onto the wood and into the pores, at least on the front. By the time the guitar is shipped, it's beginning to develop a tonal character, but is not yet in balance; there are bass and lower midrange frequencies and harmonics to be developed; this happens as the wood "loosens" up with frequent playing.
I might add that this is empirical, not theoretical; strictly from my own observations. If anyone out there can give me a bibliographical reference on this, I'd be most grateful.
That's a short answer. It would make a fascinating book for those of us who are obsessed with sound and music, and the craft and technology that creates both.
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deaconblues
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Re: Wood Aging Process
Thank you so much Paul. It appears the jury's still out. Where else can one get this kind of information but the RRF?!
It must have been a humbling experience to hold that Strad. My roommate has a $16,000 violin and I'm afraid to move it - when it's inside the case!
I really believe that a long-term study would find significant improvement in tone as an instrument ages. I've heard it takes about five years for a guitar to really "find itself," so to speak, and start sounding better to the untrained ear. My 330 will be fifteen years old next month, and the difference in resonance and tone compared to a new 330 is very apparent. When I got it it was used but not abused...reeked of cigarettes, though. I'd like to think it spent its first ten years or so in some smokey jazz bar...
Is there a reason the acoustics stay unfinished? Something to do with the drying time or just because of backlog reasons?
It must have been a humbling experience to hold that Strad. My roommate has a $16,000 violin and I'm afraid to move it - when it's inside the case!
I really believe that a long-term study would find significant improvement in tone as an instrument ages. I've heard it takes about five years for a guitar to really "find itself," so to speak, and start sounding better to the untrained ear. My 330 will be fifteen years old next month, and the difference in resonance and tone compared to a new 330 is very apparent. When I got it it was used but not abused...reeked of cigarettes, though. I'd like to think it spent its first ten years or so in some smokey jazz bar...
Is there a reason the acoustics stay unfinished? Something to do with the drying time or just because of backlog reasons?
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Wood Aging Process
I tend to agree. My ears tell me it's so with hollow bodied and acoustic guitars.dpowell wrote:Thank you so much Paul. It appears the jury's still out. Where else can one get this kind of information but the RRF?!
It must have been a humbling experience to hold that Strad. My roommate has a $16,000 violin and I'm afraid to move it - when it's inside the case!
I really believe that a long-term study would find significant improvement in tone as an instrument ages. I've heard it takes about five years for a guitar to really "find itself," so to speak, and start sounding better to the untrained ear. My 330 will be fifteen years old next month, and the difference in resonance and tone compared to a new 330 is very apparent. When I got it it was used but not abused...reeked of cigarettes, though. I'd like to think it spent its first ten years or so in some smokey jazz bar...
Is there a reason the acoustics stay unfinished? Something to do with the drying time or just because of backlog reasons?
The acoustics stay unfinished for as long as possible after assembly, to acclimate them. The temperature and humidity in my area are just about ideal for acoustic guitar building and storage in general. The wood I acquired from RIC's acoustic shop--which filled a large SUV and is literally enough for over 100 guitars, has now aged in a non-temperature-controlled indoor storage area for two years.
Usually my finishing backlog contributes to this acclimatization. These are very stable once they receive paint and go on to their owners.
Re: Wood Aging Process
Either of you - a question. How much tonal difference between old and new instruments can be attributed to old growth wood vs farm grown. Wouldn't there be a difference in wood density between the two?
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deaconblues
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Re: Wood Aging Process
Definitely. In the study Paul posted, two violin tops had different sonic qualities - and they were cut from the same piece of wood! There are literally hundreds of variables.
I guess I just trust my ear...there's a certain (very subjective) "sweetness" that can commonly be heard on the older guitars.
I'm not sure how much a modern-day 330 can really differ, but it can't be a huge amount.
I guess I just trust my ear...there's a certain (very subjective) "sweetness" that can commonly be heard on the older guitars.
I'm not sure how much a modern-day 330 can really differ, but it can't be a huge amount.
Re: Wood Aging Process
Here in Germany we have a very dry climate and I really appreciate Pauls concerns as I don't want finish problems on a refinished instrumentjingle_jangle wrote: ...Usually my finishing backlog contributes to this acclimatization. These are very stable once they receive paint and go on to their owners.
and I'm simply not able to cope with any finish issues other than the recommended ScratchX/Zymol-treatment 
Re: Wood Aging Process
When I lived in Vancouver I knew a very fine luthier who specialized in classical and flamenco guitars. He would travel to the BC interior in search of "old wood" - generally this would be large pieces of spruce that had been used in the construction of barns. In his opinion this aged, old growth wood was sonically superior to "new wood".johnallg wrote:Either of you - a question. How much tonal difference between old and new instruments can be attributed to old growth wood vs farm grown. Wouldn't there be a difference in wood density between the two?
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jingle_jangle
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Re: Wood Aging Process
Well, in most cases, it's denser, although common sense would also tell us that its variations in density would also be greater.
Anyone who has remodeled an old balloon-framed house using new dimension lumber can attest. Even 50 years ago, lumber of the same species was much denser--much newer dimension lumber is lighter in weight due to decreased density.
I've mentioned this before--I've build a number of necks with a center strip (skunk stripe) of 200-year-old walnut that came from a barn in Indiana (it was stored there, not part of the barn's structure). I purchased a billet of this stuff that was S4S to 2" thick, was perhaps 10" wide and 5 feet long, and weighed a good 50 or 60 pounds. It's been cut down somewhat to about 8" wide, and on Sunday I was moving the billet over to one side of the rack, and I dropped it, end down, onto my left foot...
Anyway, old, natural-growth wood can be dense.
Anyone who has remodeled an old balloon-framed house using new dimension lumber can attest. Even 50 years ago, lumber of the same species was much denser--much newer dimension lumber is lighter in weight due to decreased density.
I've mentioned this before--I've build a number of necks with a center strip (skunk stripe) of 200-year-old walnut that came from a barn in Indiana (it was stored there, not part of the barn's structure). I purchased a billet of this stuff that was S4S to 2" thick, was perhaps 10" wide and 5 feet long, and weighed a good 50 or 60 pounds. It's been cut down somewhat to about 8" wide, and on Sunday I was moving the billet over to one side of the rack, and I dropped it, end down, onto my left foot...
Anyway, old, natural-growth wood can be dense.
Re: Wood Aging Process
How's the foot? 
You don't drive a manual transmission car, do you? 
You don't drive a manual transmission car, do you? -
jingle_jangle
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Re: Wood Aging Process
The Miata...wuss car; not a 4K pressure plate in sight. Phew!!!jps wrote:How's the foot?