Jetglo to Mapleglo??

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Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (radioactive) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:33 am

I've got a 360/12v64 in Jetglo that I'd like to refinish in MapleGlo. Has anyone done this type of refin, from Black to Maple? I've read about Rickenbacker using the best woods for Mapleglo and Fireglo finishes, and the Jetglo instruments get the lesser quality wood.
Is this typically what one encounters once the stripping takes place, or are the woods used about the same for the 360v64 guitars?
Any advice would be appreciated, and I guess part of my question would be finding someone who is willing to take on this project,
Thanks!!
Rob
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (Bighouse) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:42 am

wow...PW would be THE authorative person on this topic- whatever he says believe. Now, here's my take on it.

Wood is a cellular material. As such, and given the fact that it grows in rings and exhibits soft/hard characteristics for those given growth rings, it will have the ability to suck material into voids within the grain. I don't know how RIC actually applies colors, if they're simply painted or stained...but if it's a staining process then you've got issues with that pigment absorption into those voids/grain/growthrings- and the only thing that can remove them is to either bleach them out (ick, can't be good for the rest of the wood!) or to sand them out (ick- your instrument has now lost thickness as originally designed by RIC).

I think one could go from Mapleglo to Jetglo without any issues, but not so in the reverse...unless that jetglo color is applied purely as an overlay/clearcoat part of the process. If it's stain, then forget it. Most people don't realize the difference between stain and paint. Paint is applied atop a substrate. Stain penetrates the substrate and becomes embedded within. BOTH, however, will have remnants that can be found within the grain of the wood if the wood was not properly filled and sanded before the paint was applied.

PW- am I off on this stuff? If so, please correct me.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (beatlefreak) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:35 am

RIC does not use stains.
Ka is a wheel.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (jingle_jangle) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:38 am

Well, Bob, you're mostly correct on the stain thing.

Ricks aren't stained, though, and haven't been since Ken Roberts days...

Rick, like Fender, embraced automotive finishing technology early. Using this technology and automotive materials and processes involved treating wood as a substrate like sheet metal or fiberglass. To do this, the surface of the wood was first sealed exactly so that the color coat would stay on the surface and not penetrate the wood like stain does.

Why? Staining is immensely labor-intensive and notoriously difficult to apply and get looking consistent--grain absorbs color inconsistently and looks spotty. End-grain absorbs the most stain and looks dark and dull.

If you're going to make something black, you paint it. If you're going to want a nice, shimmering metallic turquoise, you can't do this with stain--it MUST be painted. And to paint it, the grain must be sealed. So any color (including bursts) sit on top of the sealed surface.

Fender started by dipping their bodies in a thick polyester concoction called Fullerplast, which is a sort of transparent amber color that fills and seals in one step and provides the yello color in the center of a two-color burst, they fogged on the opaque black outer burst area, blending the edge of the black halo into the yellow center gradually to simulate the wear patterns on old violins and cellos.

At the same time, Rickenbacker was experimenting with transparent, dye-based colors to allow the grain to show through all the way to the edge of the burst. Fireglo and Autumnglo were born.

The simplest color painted on a Rick is, of course, Mapleglo followed by Jetglo. It's very easy to turn any other color into Jetglo--black covers everything, and quite easily. However, turning a Jetglo Rick into a transparent or burst color can prove to be a trial. First there's the issue of grain. I've stripped and refinished a lot of Jetglo instruments and have generally found small defects that could have irritated a picky owner if seen under FG or MG, like small knots or inclusions or occasionally voids that were filled with the factory's blend of wood dust and epoxy resin.

While black covers everything and hides well as long as the surface is smooth, it also can find its way into rougher or more open-grained areas as the sealer sinks into the tiny gaps in the grain, as well as into glue joints and small cracks.

So, when a JG instrument is stripped, defects in the wood may be uncovered, and after stripping, there may be some black left in the grain pores and pockets. This can prove difficult to eradicate. To further complicate matters, you won't know in most cases until after stripping and sanding, so it's a bit of a **** shoot. (Note: the word "****" here refers to a dice game. Gimme a break, censors!)

Thus, going from JG to MG and having the instrument look factory-fresh in the finish department can be done, but it's inadvisable to conclude that success is given; it can be a struggle.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (marc61) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:32 am

jingle_jangle wrote:However, turning a Jetglo Rick into a transparent or burst color can prove to be a trial. First there's the issue of grain. I've stripped and refinished a lot of Jetglo instruments and have generally found small defects that could have irritated a picky owner if seen under FG or MG, like small knots or inclusions or occasionally voids that were filled with the factory's blend of wood dust and epoxy resin.



It's my understanding that this is the reason all models will show up in Jetglo, with at least a few examples, whether offered that way or not. That said, I highly doubt all or even most the JGs will have defects. If it were me, I'd probably want to see the stripped down wood before I could say definitively that I wanted it MG, and have an opaque color in mind as a back up.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (radioactive) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:32 am

What great and comprehensive responses, Thanks very much. It's probably best left alone unmolested after reading Paul's comments, but then again, I'm not that picky about small flaws, and the like. In the event I do go ahead with the process, all this information will prove very helpful. Thanks again!!
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (Bighouse) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:53 am

radioactive wrote:What great and comprehensive responses, Thanks very much. It's probably best left alone unmolested after reading Paul's comments, but then again, I'm not that picky about small flaws, and the like. In the event I do go ahead with the process, all this information will prove very helpful. Thanks again!!


Yeah, PW's always got such good stuff to say. Thanks Paul for the education!
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (paologregorio) » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:08 pm

You might get lucky; as you can see with a JG 330 I'm having converted to a 360 OS model. The grain is in an attractive pattern, but since it's since converted to a 21 fret model, with the original neck p/up rout blocked, and the neck cut back to 21 frets, a translucent finish would not work, not that I had ever considered one. The guitar will be finished, if it hasn't been already, in Blue Boy.
April2009050.jpg

guitarwork004.jpg


Having said that, I wouldn't risk stripping a JG finish. IMHO, JG sets off the binding and guards in a much more striking manner. You also might be able to find a MG 360 V64/12; they are out there. :D
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (radioactive) » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:31 pm

That should look good in Blue Boy, Thanks for the info and pics.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (godber) » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:10 pm

paologregorio wrote:You might get lucky; as you can see with a JG 330 I'm having converted to a 360 OS model. The grain is in an attractive pattern, but since it's since converted to a 21 fret model, with the original neck p/up rout blocked, and the neck cut back to 21 frets, a translucent finish would not work, not that I had ever considered one. The guitar will be finished, if it hasn't been already, in Blue Boy.
April2009050.jpg

guitarwork004.jpg


Having said that, I wouldn't risk stripping a JG finish. IMHO, JG sets off the binding and guards in a much more striking manner. You also might be able to find a MG 360 V64/12; they are out there. :D


I would like to see a thread on that conversion Paul. Looks great.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (jch) » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:18 pm

"I would like to see a thread on that conversion Paul. Looks great."

+1 8)
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (paologregorio) » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:32 pm

jch wrote:"I would like to see a thread on that conversion Paul. Looks great."

+1 8)


Thanks. I will oblige the forum once the guitar is completed and received...if I can put it down long enough-shouldn't be too difficult, as I have my beloved "Big Red". :lol:
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (godber) » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:03 pm

Nice one.
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (firstbassman) » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:29 pm

jingle_jangle wrote:The simplest color painted on a Rick is, of course, Mapleglo



Hey Paul. Were you being sarcastic?
Is there really any paint involved in MGs?



PS: If that is a photo with your daughter, congrats! Anyone ever mention that she looks like a young Claire Danes?

I only get to see my daughter (currently) for the summer and in December.
:(
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Re: Jetglo to Mapleglo??

Postby (collin) » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:48 pm

firstbassman wrote:
jingle_jangle wrote:The simplest color painted on a Rick is, of course, Mapleglo



Hey Paul. Were you being sarcastic?
Is there really any paint involved in MGs?





Sure there is----sprayed on sealer and clear coat.

I consider clear coat a paint----without pigment, of course....but still a process applied and treated like paint.




ps.....DON'T refinish the guitar!!! It'd be a shame to see a nice JG v64 get repainted in a color that is already available to the v64 models!! Just wait until you find a nice MG v64/12 for sale, then sell/trade em up----save the jetglos!! :P
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