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Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:29 pm
by squirebass
Folks, I know there must be some threads out there regarding options for reissue and "boutique" norseshoe bridge pickups as used in the 4001v63 and in the 4001c64 models, but I have not been able to locate using the search here. Perhaps I'm just using the wrong search words. What I want to know are my options for installing a drop in horseshoe for my 4003 and 4003S. Would also like to know what people think about the magnetized vs non-magnetized models, are the Lollar's still available, etc. Thanks!

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:59 pm
by Kopfjaeger
Gene,

OK, here is my opinion. There is nothing like the tone you get from a vintage wound horsie, period. I like the unique growl of this type pup but unfortunately, your options are limited. Lollar still makes his horsie pups with his magnets but I think his price is $700.+. I imagine RIC needs to be given a cut out of that as part of the deal he struck to make them. Jason is a great guy and he makes a quality product, he really does. he an I have had numerous conversations about his horsie vs the original horsie. His is a very faithful rendition but with better quality components. You will never find an original horsie. well, you may but it will set you back much more than $700. You can modify a pre 69 6 pole lapsteel bobbin and use the magnetic shoes from the lapsteel. Once you purchase the lapsteel and have the pup modified, you will be near the $700. route. OK, maybe $600.

The faux horsie (RIHS) is nothing like the original. it is wound hotter and lacks the grind of the original. I don't have the specs at hand but the original horsie was wound to like 7.2k, or something like that. The RIHS is would much hotter and on par with what the higain in your S bass has. If you don't plan on swapping out your hot neck pup, I'm afraid you will see a huge balance discrepancy. Also, the pots in your S bass are not the same speck as vintage horsie pots. i do not know what tonal affect that will have on a vintage pup. Perhaps Dane will chime in here and either correct my stats and/or shed a little light on the tonal difference the new pots will have as compared to vintage pots.

I love my new walnut S bass. i love they way she plays and sounds but while I was waiting for her to arrive, I purchased a vintage harness from Dane as well as a set of 60's spec pups from Classic Amplification. I've yet to drop them in since I'm having a blast playing her as is. I will be changing her over in the next few weeks. I exopect to lose some up front output of the hotter wound factory pups. I'm OK with this if it makes up for it in the tone department. My main gig bass is a 1972 4001 so I'm use to what she puts out.

Sepp

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:20 pm
by woodyng
Hi,Gene, Coming from a position of being fairly frugal,i can't see paying megabucks for a pickup replacement.
If what you're trying to achieve is a more vintage sound from your modern 4003,you could try replacing the 4003's hot pickups with a higain bridge pup from the 70's,which may (?) be easier and cheaper to come by,and a new scatterwound toaster for the neck. From what i've read,you're gonna want to replace the 330k pots with 250k,and maybe the capacitor too. Paging Dr Wilder.....
Ps,one of the reasons i didn't hang on to your beautiful V63 was i didn't care too much for the sound of the RIHS....

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:10 pm
by squirebass
Hey, Woody, thanks for your comments, I used to play that 4001v63 with the horsey full out or close... I loved that bass and the horsey was a big part of what I loved about it. That said, it is a really nice tone but not just like a vintage horsey. Close in many respects, but not the whole enchilada. That was why I was looking around for another, closer option. But that bass was also wired completely stock as far as I could tell. Might sound different with one of Dane's harnesses in it...

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:20 pm
by squirebass
Sepp, thanks for chiming in, just saw your comment since I'm commenting from my phone. You are exactly right -- that grind is exactly what is missing from the RIHS pickup, but are you saying that the neck hi gain, when paired with the RIHS, will reduce output of the bridge pu?
Incidentally, this change I'm contemplating is for my MG 4003, I really enjoying my 4003S FG a great deal, although I'm expecting one of Dane's witin harnesses in mail any day now... For now, I'm leaving pickups as they are...

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:53 pm
by Boogie
squirebass wrote:Sepp, thanks for chiming in, just saw your comment since I'm commenting from my phone. You are exactly right -- that grind is exactly what is missing from the RIHS pickup, but are you saying that the neck hi gain, when paired with the RIHS, will reduce output of the bridge pu?
Incidentally, this change I'm contemplating is for my MG 4003, I really enjoying my 4003S FG a great deal, although I'm expecting one of Dane's witin harnesses in mail any day now... For now, I'm leaving pickups as they are...


I would like to hear how do you like Dane's harness once it is installed with stock pickups.

For the vintage tone, other than the RIC Toaster RI, what are the other alternatives for neck PU replacements other than the one by Classic Amplification? Lollar does not make a bass version of his "The Boiler" PU and I am not really interested in the Barden or Duncan ones.

Actually, is the RIC Toaster RI also wound hotter than the original?

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:48 pm
by Ashgray
If you're going to fit an original horsie or one from a lap steel, you may wish to consider going all the way and replacing the neck hi-gain/toaster with a vintage toaster that is wound less hot, so that the outputs and balance are more equal. I'd also replace the harness with one of Dane's, using a push-pull pot to activate/deactivate the tone cap. The combination of all three mods is a winner - I did all of the above with my V63 and turned a really good bass into a great one.

Ash

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:51 pm
by aceonbass
The current RIC Toasters are about the same resistance as the originals from the 60's, so I'd think they sound the same.

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:39 pm
by squirebass
This is why I was thinking of staying with the hi gain neck pu - I really use the bridge pu far more. I use the neck pu but it is turned down. About the only thing I'll miss is the toaster harmonics in the old style position, don't want to modify my bass for that...

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:06 pm
by superheavydeathmetal
Kopfjaeger wrote:There is nothing like the tone you get from a vintage wound horsie, period. I like the unique growl of this type pup but unfortunately, your options are limited.
The faux horsie (RIHS) is nothing like the original. it is wound hotter and lacks the grind of the original.

squirebass wrote:You are exactly right -- that grind is exactly what is missing from the RIHS pickup.

:( That's exactly what I want as much of as I can possibly get.


Boogie wrote:I would like to hear how do you like Dane's harness once it is installed with stock pickups.

I love the sound I get from my v63 with a Dane harness (it has a stereo jack instead of mono). Maybe the reissue horseshoe isn't quite up to the original, but I think the sound I get is pretty close, by any reasonable standard.

However, based the comments in this thread, now I really want to try a Lollar horseshoe.

The pursuit of perfect tone never ends...

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:56 pm
by squirebass
Well, then the tone you are getting is what I'm interested in, metal. My v63 used to get well past halfway down the road to that tone, but it didn't nail it like a real horsey, and it didn't have the Dane harness or cap... You have exactly what I'm considering for my 4003 right down to the stereo jack. Please tell more about it!

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:48 pm
by Kopfjaeger
Gene,

I've never had string to string balance issues from my horseshoe pups. The exception being Snow White. From what I remember I think the pup was a Sergio wound pup with 67 shoes on it. Now that bass I could not get even tone on all 4 strings. Not so with the 1968 Geddy bass, my 1965 4001, or my first run real horsie 1984 v63. Others have had string to string balance issues. I had both of Mark Walker's horsie basses at my house for a while. His 1968 was perhaps the most awesome instrument I've ever had the pleasure of playing and his custom painted righty lefty was pretty damn awesome as well. From what I've learned, if I've learned anything, pole to string alignment is critical with real horsies. Case in point, the first run v63 I have had a few tone issues but the string to pole alignment was all ******** up on the bass. Looks liek Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder put that bass together on a Monday morning after an all night drinkfest! :D Once the pup alignment was fixed, what a tone change!! It was night and day!!

The adjustable pole pieces on the current higains are pretty neat in that you can really dial in and obtain perfect balance. Perhaps Jason can make the bobbin adjustable. Ask him, He is a wizard at his craft!!

Dane, perhaps I should have been specific, the newer scatter wound toaster have about the same impedance as 60's toasters? I sort of remember hearing that. Tone wise, a completely different monster. I've never been able to replicate the buttery smooth goodness of a short pole toaster. How about the neck higains, they are wound way hotter, correct? I just got back from the gym and I'm just too damn lazy to march my rear end to the basement to retrieve my Ohm meter.

Sepp

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:01 pm
by squirebass
Sepp, does Sergio do horseshoes, or just rewinding? I haven't really talked with him since the days when we both had 21 fretters! I love the tone on those old horseys, but it seems like Squire was the only one able to get one that worked like a charm.. The 4003 bass in question is a 2009 model,so its got adjustable polepieces, wide inlays, pull up tone knob for the .47 capacitor, plus its just a really nicely made bass -- neck is a little bit chunky, but if she had checker binding, why I just might marry her!!! :oops: :lol: :oops:

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:09 pm
by aceonbass
Sepp......Current Toasters are between 7.5-8K. Current Hi-gains are about 12K. Most of the RIHS's I've had are about 12K also, but the last one I got for a customer measured a little over 10k, which is a good thing since he was putting it in a Squire tribute bass I helped him put together.

Re: Lets talk about horseys

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:22 pm
by jps
I have a toaster in my parts box with slotted corner screws, so presumably a scatterwound, but it does not have the molding marks on the top; it reads 6.10K Ω (perhaps it is actually a vintage one but I don't think so). I also have a newer one that reads 7.17K Ω, along with a short magnet toaster which reads 3.598K Ω. When I get around to it I should measure (again) the magnetic HS PU I have, but IIRC it is around 8.1K Ω