Bubbling Finish Issues?

[Gilmourisgod]

About 4 years ago, when my local GC was (briefly) stocking Ric basses again, I looked at three brand new, freshly delivered Jetglo models. One was hung on the wall, very high to ensure salesperson access only, and two still in the cases. The one on display had finish bubbling or clearcoat separation around the bridge. I asked to see the other two in stock, of those, one was absolutely flawless, the other was also exhibiting finish bubbling at the bridge. At the time, I chalked it up to some kind extreme temperature change or other shipping damage, or maybe over-zealous tightening of the bridge screws causing the bridge to "bite" through the finish. I am a regular poster on the Talkbass Rickenbacker Club, not what you'd call a hotbed of Ric sceptics or haters, quite the opposite in fact. A number of basses (10+ or so) have popped up on TB with the identical finish bubbling around the bridge, and in some cases around tuners, strap buttons, or other hardware that is screwed down tightly to the body. In every case, it seems to be basses made after 2010, which seems to correlate with the change to a UV cured finish. There are too many photographically documented cases of this to be a random fluke, though its not common either. The reaction from Ric CS has been mixed. In most cases, the Customer has to pay for shipping back to the factory in CA for a complete refin, with one way shipping out of their pocket, regardless if the finish warranty is still in effect. Wildwood Guitars and Pick of the Ricks are apparently aware of the problem, have tried to "go to bat" for some of these Ric owners, and have started looking for that specific problem prior to shipping. In one case on TB, I believe it was through Wildwood, the finish problems didn't crop up for around 4 months after sale, so they couldn't have caught it prior to shipment. In that case the owner paid to have it shipped back to factory, where a complete refin was done. As of this writing, his bass has begun bubbling again in the exact same location, so its something inherent to the finish materials or process. The finish warranty, which begins on date of manufacture, not sale, has now expired, so Ric has washed their hands of it in his case. The situation is worse for European buyers, who have no warranty protection at all, and any refins have to be done by local luthiers, with or without reimbursement. If Wildwood and POTR are aware of this, Ric Corporate must be too. Has anyone here heard anything about a resolution for this issue? It's gotten common enough that some Ric owners are advising people not to buy any painted bass newer than 2010, or to stick with the oil finished W models.

[coolhandjjl]

Couple errors, UV cure came earlier, perhaps in 2007, and not related to the issue described above. In 2010, it's my understanding the big change was to a polyester-based finish (still a UV cure finish though), but no longer a polyurethane-based finish. The new finish may also be water borne, not sure. The change to a new finish was to comply with California clean air regs that went into effect around that time.

The other is that I believe the issue is not limited to painted basses. IIRC, a TB member had an issue on a Mapleglo 4003.

[Gilmourisgod]

That’s interesting, hadn’t seen any Mapleglo examples, but it makes sense since it’s effectively the clearcoat that’s separating from the paint layer, I haven’t seen any examples of the paint itself coming off. Obviously most visible on Jetglo or other dark finishes. But why almost always at the bridge? Some seem to have rough or slightly sharp edges on the bottom faces, it’s possible the bridges are cutting or crushing the clearcoat as they are being screwed down tight, presumably with a pneumatic or electric screwgun. The UV cured finish has the advantage being fast for production, but I wonder if it’s really fully “cured” before they go out the door.

[henry5]

is this a problem that has been noted in recent basses? I'm currenlty looking at one of the BRG 4003 basses and don't fancy forking out a small fortune for a specific colour only to find the finish starts bubbling.

[Gilmourisgod]

Yeah, it’s totally current, but seemingly random, and it can show up months after purchase.

[teeder]

That's not good!
I had a 4001V63 from '92 and have seen others from around that timeframe that had a lot of finish chipping around the tailpiece. I'm not sure what was up with that, but the finish was extremely brittle.

[coolhandjjl]

That's not good!
I had a 4001V63 from '92 and have seen others from around that timeframe that had a lot of finish chipping around the tailpiece. I'm not sure what was up with that, but the finish was extremely brittle.

There certainly are pre-2010 basses that have had finish issues, but the issue this post is about is the same type of finish failure that spans many years, and seems to begin with the finish formula change in 2010. BTW, I have a '93 Fireglo 4003S and the finish looks as good as new!

The guy from Italy who had the problem show up after 4 mos took his bridge off and there were no burrs or sharp edges. That, along with the ones seen at the machine head mounting plate, tells me the finish doesn't seem to be robust enough to withstand pressure, and not caused by a cutting of the finish.

Regarding my seeing a Mapleglo one with a finish failure, it's certainly possible I may be mistaken, getting old here...

[Gilmourisgod]

Since any finish warranty claim requires the owner to pay for shipping one way, depending where you are, it can be a chunk of change. The guy on TB who had the factory refin paid around $150 to have it shipped, so 10% of the value of a $1500 bass. That’s not too cool, particularly when the the bass developed the same problem again almost immediately. His $150 went up in smoke.

[henry5]

Since any finish warranty claim requires the owner to pay for shipping one way, depending where you are, it can be a chunk of change. The guy on TB who had the factory refin paid around $150 to have it shipped, so 10% of the value of a $1500 bass. That’s not too cool, particularly when the the bass developed the same problem again almost immediately. His $150 went up in smoke.

It’s also a big issue for people who live outside the US. And what happens if you buy one used and the paint starts falling off? I had enough problems with my 2 x 4001CS basses; if you looked at those the paint discoloured/fell off.

Not the thing I wanted to hear at this point, particularly as the BRG I’m now looking at is used (I’ve decided upon reflection that I’m pushing it financially buying new). And particularly annoying if it’s completely random, as I could end up not buying a bass that turns out to have no issues. I love Rics & I’ve spent so much time defending them online, but I really wish they’d sort stuff like this out.

[bassduke49]

Well, buying one used or second hand, no warranties would transfer anyway.

There are sooooooo many variables in this that it may take some time before a fix is found. Was it the wood? Was it the paint? Was it the clearcoat? Was it the mix of the paint/clearcoat? Was it the brand/batch? Was it the conditions the paint/clearcoat was applied? Was it applied properly? How much time between color and clearcoat? Temperature? Humidity? Was the hardware attached too soon? Too late? Was there a temperature shift during shipment? During storage at destination? How long after it was applied that the problem occurred? Was it a brief occurrence or does it continue to get worse over time?

For decades, RIC had all of this smoothed out. Then they had to switch to different materials for environmental reasons and how do you predict a failure like this? Well, you try the stuff, and if it looks OK after a certain time, it should be OK. But shift just one parameter above (let's say, the wood hadn't aged/dried enough or too much) and the clearcoat starts to peel due to poor adhesion. So what went wrong? Or how many things went wrong? Clearcoat contaminated somehow? Could it be that there is some sort of light lubricating coating on the hardware or screws that leaches into the clearcoat and eventually weakens the adhesion. There are a host of factors that could be involved here and probably a host more I haven't considered. I'll bet the folks at RIC are still trying to figure it out. I wonder what the failure rate is? Someone postulated 10%, but there's no way to tell that, especially on chat groups even with user surveys. One man's fatal flaw is another man's mojo.

[Gilmourisgod]

Well, buying one used or second hand, no warranties would transfer anyway.

There are sooooooo many variables in this that it may take some time before a fix is found. Was it the wood? Was it the paint? Was it the clearcoat? Was it the mix of the paint/clearcoat? Was it the brand/batch? Was it the conditions the paint/clearcoat was applied? Was it applied properly? How much time between color and clearcoat? Temperature? Humidity? Was the hardware attached too soon? Too late? Was there a temperature shift during shipment? During storage at destination? How long after it was applied that the problem occurred? Was it a brief occurrence or does it continue to get worse over time?

For decades, RIC had all of this smoothed out. Then they had to switch to different materials for environmental reasons and how do you predict a failure like this? Well, you try the stuff, and if it looks OK after a certain time, it should be OK. But shift just one parameter above (let's say, the wood hadn't aged/dried enough or too much) and the clearcoat starts to peel due to poor adhesion. So what went wrong? Or how many things went wrong? Clearcoat contaminated somehow? Could it be that there is some sort of light lubricating coating on the hardware or screws that leaches into the clearcoat and eventually weakens the adhesion. There are a host of factors that could be involved here and probably a host more I haven't considered. I'll bet the folks at RIC are still trying to figure it out. I wonder what the failure rate is? Someone postulated 10%, but there's no way to tell that, especially on chat groups even with user surveys. One man's fatal flaw is another man's mojo.

All of those variables apply to every bass maker generally, and any California builder specifically, of course, but paying Customers should not be part of the Ric R&D process while they figure it out. A warranty that doesn't cover a defective finish isn't worth much if you have to shell out 10% of the value of the bass to make a claim on it. Picture the scene: You buy a brand new car, your pride and joy. After 4 months of ordinary use, the clearcoat starts peeling off the hood. 100% of the members of this forum would go right back to the dealership and demand it be repainted, free of charge, and that's what would happen. Picture them saying "uh... yeah, you'll have to ship it back to the factory, on your dime, it'll cost you around 10% of the value of the car". Choice Words would be spoken, and you'd be right to shout them. If you accept the 2010 date as approximately when this problem started showing up, eight years is a very long learning curve for the Ric finish department. They have a problem, they know it, not fair to let random customers take the brunt of it. A loyal customer base like Ric Owners (none more loyal!) has the right to expect better. In the meantime, buy a W model.

[henry5]

Well, buying one used or second hand, no warranties would transfer anyway.

There are sooooooo many variables in this that it may take some time before a fix is found. Was it the wood? Was it the paint? Was it the clearcoat? Was it the mix of the paint/clearcoat? Was it the brand/batch? Was it the conditions the paint/clearcoat was applied? Was it applied properly? How much time between color and clearcoat? Temperature? Humidity? Was the hardware attached too soon? Too late? Was there a temperature shift during shipment? During storage at destination? How long after it was applied that the problem occurred? Was it a brief occurrence or does it continue to get worse over time?

For decades, RIC had all of this smoothed out. Then they had to switch to different materials for environmental reasons and how do you predict a failure like this? Well, you try the stuff, and if it looks OK after a certain time, it should be OK. But shift just one parameter above (let's say, the wood hadn't aged/dried enough or too much) and the clearcoat starts to peel due to poor adhesion. So what went wrong? Or how many things went wrong? Clearcoat contaminated somehow? Could it be that there is some sort of light lubricating coating on the hardware or screws that leaches into the clearcoat and eventually weakens the adhesion. There are a host of factors that could be involved here and probably a host more I haven't considered. I'll bet the folks at RIC are still trying to figure it out. I wonder what the failure rate is? Someone postulated 10%, but there's no way to tell that, especially on chat groups even with user surveys. One man's fatal flaw is another man's mojo.

I realise the warranties wouldn’t transfer Paul; that was my point. If you buy used and your paint falls off, you’re scuppered. Whilst buying used always carries some risk in terms of mistreatment, hidden issues etc, the paint potentially falling off is above and beyond; even worse if the chances of it happening are completely random.

[coolhandjjl]

Well, buying one used or second hand, no warranties would transfer anyway.

There are sooooooo many variables in this that it may take some time before a fix is found. Was it the wood? Was it the paint? Was it the clearcoat? Was it the mix of the paint/clearcoat? Was it the brand/batch? Was it the conditions the paint/clearcoat was applied? Was it applied properly? How much time between color and clearcoat? Temperature? Humidity? Was the hardware attached too soon? Too late? Was there a temperature shift during shipment? During storage at destination? How long after it was applied that the problem occurred? Was it a brief occurrence or does it continue to get worse over time?

For decades, RIC had all of this smoothed out. Then they had to switch to different materials for environmental reasons and how do you predict a failure like this? Well, you try the stuff, and if it looks OK after a certain time, it should be OK. But shift just one parameter above (let's say, the wood hadn't aged/dried enough or too much) and the clearcoat starts to peel due to poor adhesion. So what went wrong? Or how many things went wrong? Clearcoat contaminated somehow? Could it be that there is some sort of light lubricating coating on the hardware or screws that leaches into the clearcoat and eventually weakens the adhesion. There are a host of factors that could be involved here and probably a host more I haven't considered. I'll bet the folks at RIC are still trying to figure it out. I wonder what the failure rate is? Someone postulated 10%, but there's no way to tell that, especially on chat groups even with user surveys. One man's fatal flaw is another man's mojo.

With all due respect Paul, it's been over seven years. Also, RIC is in business to produce and sell high quality instruments to the general public, not to use customers as beta testers. Finish bubbling off is never to be simply brushed off as mojo, rather it's shoddy workmanship, and is treating the customer and their hard earned dollars with contempt.

RIC is in business to figure this stuff out beforehand. And in a worse-case scenario, most companies get only a couple of selling seasons to figure out and solve a glitch that was released to the general public before they loose all customer confidence.

Again, it's been going on for over seven years, so that tells me finding a solution isn't even on RIC's radar.

As with everything, caveat emptor.

But for this cowboy, additional Rick bass purchases will be pre-2010 models.

[bassduke49]

Understood. But, we don't know how widespread this problem is, and maybe RIC doesn't know either. Issues like this tend to be amplified by the forums. The folks who have the problem and who also document it for all of us to see are to be commended. But even if it ends up being a hundred instruments with this problem, is that enough to analyze the problem? That's why it is going to be difficult to see what is going wrong. If they make 10,000 instruments in ten years, and a hundred of them bubble up, is there enough evidence there to determine which factor or combination of factors is causing the problem?

As far as warranty claims and expenses go, I think (and I could be wrong on this - I don't have enough information) the business model on this is probably more like the auto industry. RIC has it set up with the DEALERS as their customers. I think (again, could be wrong) that their deal with dealers is that they want the final customer (you and me, etc.) to make warranty claims to the dealer. They want the dealer to do minor repairs or parts replacement of genuine RIC parts that the dealers should have in stock, just like auto dealers. Finish issues are usually beyond what a RIC dealer can do, and that's why the warranty on finishes is different, shorter, and limited. If you return a bass with the bubbling finish to a large dealer, he would likely offer a replacement from stock for you, then retain the defective product and decide for himself to send it back to RIC at his expense, repair it locally, OR he could try to sell it as-is at a discount with the buyer understanding that the finish defect can't be warrantied. (Face it: There are some buyers who aren't fussy and think a little mojo out of the box is worth a couple hun in savings.) If the dealer returned it to RIC, it would likely be credited to a standing order. Smaller dealers, on the other hand, who may not have stock to offer you in trade, may want to pass on this shipping cost to you, plus have you wait for the instrument to be returned (or exchanged at the factory). This may convince you that all of that isn't worth the trouble and money and that you'll just live with it. OR the dealer may be cajoled into giving you a discount.

If this problem is as widespread as we seem to think it is, RIC may want to reconsider its finish warranty policy until they figure it out. I don't think that the company or its owners are as callous as some make them out to be. I don't think they are ignoring the problem. It seems to me that they don't have a fix for it, judging by the anecdotal info of some users returning their bass, only to receive the same or another instrument with the same condition.

Oh, has anyone found out if any of the guitar models have this bubbling finish issue?

[bluewhale]

...I don't think that the company or its owners are as callous as some make them out to be...

Some have said, based on experience, that if a RIC instrument is sent back to the factory for refinishing under warranty, it is the original warranty that remains in effect; there is no "renewal" for another year.

Asking in ignorance, is that par for guitar, bass, or auto manufacturers?

My own impression is that the message, "Thank you for choosing Rickenbacker," is undermined by this aspect of the warranty, as I understand it. Data point: (2011 4001C64 white, finish is good so far).

bluewhale