Passive pickup "clipping"

[cassius987]

I have started doing some recordings for a "tone journal" (I'm trying to use these recordings to be more objective about things like string changes, replacement pickups and so forth). In the process, I have noticed (for the first time in recent memory) that if I dig in hard to get a louder sound, the pickups can actually "clip" or distort independent of the input stage. When I hear this sound in a live setting I usually assume the input stage is getting overloaded - here, I have done everything I can to assure this is not so. Whether straight into the DAW or via a nice DI, I can reproduce this effect. It's mostly limited to E string notes and is enhanced by playing close to the neck.

Unless I play very, very hard it is arguable you might miss this in a mix. It also seems more obvious on a DAW, but it's present in live sound too. I'd like to eliminate it as much as possible while still being able to play aggressively as needed. Any tips, in addition to being more careful with my technique?

[wim]

Are you sure the signal effectively clips?
You could hear string vibration limited by hitting the frets, which gives a buzz sound.
It seems too me the output from pickups is to weak to even come close to clipping. Just think about how hard you have to push an amp to get there

[Isaac]

I don't think that clipping is the right term, but I think I have experienced a similar thing with some of my basses. I found that lowering the pickups helped.

[iiipopes]

It is either the strings hitting the pole pieces, or fret slap, or if the gain is really high, it could be clipping. Please try one or all the following: lighten touch slightly, adjust the neck slightly (a hair more relief?); raise strings slightly, lower pickup slightly. I know I have to balance all of these when I get a new bass, and sometimes it takes a couple of gigs to get the balance right, with adjustment tools at hand.

[cjj]

It could actually be the pickup itself effectively clipping the signal.

***WARNING***
Techno-Nerd™ content ahead...

A guitar pickup works by means of varying the magnetic field near a coil, which induces a voltage in the coil. Moving strings produce this variation in the field when the string cuts the flux lines of the field. If the string motion is small, the flux lines are cut within a relatively uniform portion of the field and we will get a sinusoidal variation of the field and therefore a sinusoidal voltage induced in the coil.

When the sting movement increases, the cut flux should also increase, but the string moves into areas where the magnetic flux density decreases (moving away from the pole pieces). This causes a deformation in the amplitude of the signal, flattening the peaks so that it is no longer sinusoidal. This flattening is because the signal now contains higher harmonics, similar to what happens when the signal is clipped.

So, playing really hard, causing the string to move far out of the uniform magnetic field around the pole pieces can actually have a clipping effect on the signal...

[iiipopes]

It could actually be the pickup itself effectively clipping the signal.

***WARNING***
Techno-Nerd™ content ahead...

A guitar pickup works by means of varying the magnetic field near a coil, which induces a voltage in the coil. Moving strings produce this variation in the field when the string cuts the flux lines of the field. If the string motion is small, the flux lines are cut within a relatively uniform portion of the field and we will get a sinusoidal variation of the field and therefore a sinusoidal voltage induced in the coil.

When the sting movement increases, the cut flux should also increase, but the string moves into areas where the magnetic flux density decreases (moving away from the pole pieces). This causes a deformation in the amplitude of the signal, flattening the peaks so that it is no longer sinusoidal. This flattening is because the signal now contains higher harmonics, similar to what happens when the signal is clipped.

So, playing really hard, causing the string to move far out of the uniform magnetic field around the pole pieces can actually have a clipping effect on the signal...

Like.

[cassius987]

Are you sure the signal effectively clips?

It definitely distorts in a manner that sounds a lot like traditional clipping. But I agree, it's not accurate to really call it clipping. I can reproduce this even if the signal is at a whimper by plucking the strings really hard. (Harder than I would ever normally do, but still.)

It is either the strings hitting the pole pieces, or fret slap, or if the gain is really high, it could be clipping. Please try one or all the following: lighten touch slightly, adjust the neck slightly (a hair more relief?); raise strings slightly, lower pickup slightly. I know I have to balance all of these when I get a new bass, and sometimes it takes a couple of gigs to get the balance right, with adjustment tools at hand.

Thanks! I'm pretty much in the process of all of that. Except... the truss rods are not engaged at all. (Totally loose.) Not enough tension on the neck. So among other things, I'm putting heavier strings on. It's possible that the low tension and maybe even a bit of backbow (but if there is any, it's not much) are contributing to the sound. That said, I can reproduce it on all of my basses with neck pickups except the 4003/5, which, as it happens, has the truss rods adjusted the tightest... But with the exact same strings on the main culprit bass with no truss tension, plus the added B string. (The 4003/5 is sounding so excellent by the way. Will have to share clips soon.)

...So, playing really hard, causing the string to move far out of the uniform magnetic field around the pole pieces can actually have a clipping effect on the signal...

Neat! That's kind of what I thought might be happening (though my version of it was coming from a really intuitive place, without any grasp of what was taking place).

I'll report back. As things evolve I may share sound clips for edification. (At this stage, I haven't gotten to try anything out but get the original test recordings, so it's too early to A/B stuff.)

[ram]

try setting the pickups down a little (an eight of and inch or so). See if that makes any difference.

[cassius987]

try setting the pickups down a little (an eight of and inch or so). See if that makes any difference.

It's actually bottomed out all the way at this point. Still does it.

[ram]

raise the strings a little at the bridge???

[Korladis]

I have started doing some recordings for a "tone journal" (I'm trying to use these recordings to be more objective about things like string changes, replacement pickups and so forth). In the process, I have noticed (for the first time in recent memory) that if I dig in hard to get a louder sound, the pickups can actually "clip" or distort independent of the input stage. When I hear this sound in a live setting I usually assume the input stage is getting overloaded - here, I have done everything I can to assure this is not so. Whether straight into the DAW or via a nice DI, I can reproduce this effect. It's mostly limited to E string notes and is enhanced by playing close to the neck.

Unless I play very, very hard it is arguable you might miss this in a mix. It also seems more obvious on a DAW, but it's present in live sound too. I'd like to eliminate it as much as possible while still being able to play aggressively as needed. Any tips, in addition to being more careful with my technique?

For me this is a feature. That's part of the growl I get from my Rickenbackers.

I guess you could lower the pickups if you don't want it. I have the bridge pickups on my Rickenbackers raised pretty high to maximize output and clipping (including pickup clipping) into the amp, so I would guess that lowering them as much as possible would reduce it.

[Korladis]

try setting the pickups down a little (an eight of and inch or so). See if that makes any difference.

It's actually bottomed out all the way at this point. Still does it.

Learn to love it?

[iiipopes]

And now for something completely different to avoid these issues: technique. I have seen Cassius987 play. He has impeccable technique. Now, for the rest of us:

Fretting hand: make sure fingernails are clipped. Put the thumb in the back of the neck, put the hand in a "C" shape, and fret the notes immediately behind the fret with the spot on the fingers that is below the fingernails, but above the center of the fingerprint. It is the slight "pad" at the end of the finger that gives the cleanest fretting.

Picking hand: also making sure the fingernails are clipped, take a clue from double bass technique. Don't "pluck" the strings with the ends of the fingers. Roll the wrist slightly inwards towards the thumb, and articulate the strings with the same place as the fretting fingers, but more on the inside edge of the finger. For conventional "right-handed" players, this is the left side of the pad on the articulating fingers, usually index and middle in conventional technique. This helps moderate the articulation to avoid the spikes from "plucking" the strings as most bass players do.

If you are a Larry Graham style player, you are on your own with his videos. Just remember that the style was developed to cover for a drummer that didn't show to a gig in order to keep the beat and to emulate the back beat of a snare drum.

And if you are a pick player as are Sir Macca in a more conventional technique or the Late Chris Squire with his singular pick-to-thumb damping technique, you are also on your own.

[cassius987]

For me this is a feature. That's part of the growl I get from my Rickenbackers.

Different strokes, is all. I get why that tone appeals in many settings, and it works fine in lots of mixes where everything else (and a bit of compression) really smooth things out, and the better part of the bass character shines through. But I'm after the "grand piano through a Marshall stack" tone of Paul d'Amour (borrowing from his description of it); that's the sound in my head. I'm always either chasing that, or something approaching a double bass a la Chris Brubeck. These guys are also Rickenbacker players, as it happens.

And now for something completely different to avoid these issues: technique. I have seen Cassius987 play. He has impeccable technique.

I don't deserve that generous appraisal, but thank you!! And I can say with heaps of confidence that Scott is one of the top players I know to this day.

Picking hand: also making sure the fingernails are clipped, take a clue from double bass technique. Don't "pluck" the strings with the ends of the fingers. Roll the wrist slightly inwards towards the thumb, and articulate the strings with the same place as the fretting fingers, but more on the inside edge of the finger. For conventional "right-handed" players, this is the left side of the pad on the articulating fingers, usually index and middle in conventional technique. This helps moderate the articulation to avoid the spikes from "plucking" the strings as most bass players do.

^This has made a crucial difference in my tone at times. The traditional "pluck" is appropriate sometimes for gnarly sound, but I prefer the double bass-esque style for clean tone. The amount of rotation is actually really small to get this sound and play efficiently. To get the technique to stick I usually have to practice scales and specific songs I know well, or the instinct is to go back to plucking. If I am doing this well, I tend to waste less energy when I play.

[Korladis]

The pickup is bottomed out completely? Is it one with adjustable saddles, and if so, are they also lowered as far as possible?