4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action bad)

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Dirk
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by Dirk »

Yeah I do it with clamps, I was using the hand technique to demonstrate how movable a neck really is.

And personally I'd deal with the truss rods and neck straightness before you start messing with the nut. I would be very surprised that the nut is where your issue is. They do well at the factory setup, so unless the nut has been changed, I wouldn't bother with this part for now. I prefer to set mine straight as a line, once that's fixed you can work at the other ends of the puzzle, bridge would the the next step after the neck.

Stew Mac or Luthiers Mercantile should be able to help with files, and you don't need the exact gauges, you can always open up the slot with a smaller file. I've done nuts with 1 tapered round file before, so you don't have to have multiples. Just make sure you mark your max depth and don't go beyond it, otherwise you get to start over from scratch.

Good luck,
Dirk
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

You jogged my memory, dirk. Years ago I was at a jewelry show, at a booth that sold jewelry making supplies/tools. I bought a pretty skinny round & tapered diamond file with a handle that also served as the storage container. It turned out to be too fat for a 6-string, but something like this might work for bass (read on)....

So, I did a search on eBay for “needle files” - in jewelry design and repair. Most of these are way too big, more for a workshop. (You must check within the jewelry options for the fine/extra fine ones.) There are some skinny ones — here’s one set that looks like it might work:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Piece-4-File ... 0008.m2219

Well, you’d have to look around, but the price is right, if you can find ones skinny enough. Might be worth a gamble even if you’re not sure.

But I agree that the nut may be a secondary / tertiary issue, more for fine tuning, so to speak.
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Dirk
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by Dirk »

Hey Maxwell,
indeed just what I was talking about.

A cheapo feeler gauge/files set might be another really cheap option.
I picked one up for the occasional guitar nuts I end up working on.

I recall it easily being sub $10 for the set, on amazon if I recall.
Dirk
blackstarNL
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by blackstarNL »

maxwell wrote:Take a look at this. Page 5 addresses neck adjustment.

RIC "Guitar and Bass, Care & Maintenance Manual"

http://www.rickenbacker.com/pdfs/manual.pdf

I forget how I did this once (I was unsuccessful...). I must have used some sort of clamps to anchor the body. Does Canada have Harbor Freight stores? The "big box" stores sell these, too, of course; more expensive, but maybe better quality. For anchoring the body, a couple of these cheap clamps would work fine, since the clamp jaws would have to open pretty wide to accommodate the guitar body, the edge of the table or bench you're working on, towels or other protective cloth over & under the guitar body, and some wood or something hard to place between the towel/cloth on the face of the guitar and the contact point of the clamp.

PPS - There must be room/space to allow the neck to flex downward a little. I seem to recall positioning the rear edge of the guitar body at the edge of a table, and then using a paperback book (one-half inch or so) near the body-neck junction in order to have the guitar neck rise upward providing space under it. Once all positioning is done, clamp down/anchor the guitar body. Use a straight edge over the frets of the entire neck in order to examine its current degree of relief. Flex/push down on the neck near the nut (I would NOT push on the headstock). While holding the neck down Just A Little, snug up the nuts; you will get a hint of how successful your adjustment is when you snug up the nuts while flexing the neck: if the nuts move/rotate/tighten, then you've accomplished some straightening as you take up the slack in the now straighter truss rods. Check/compare with your straight edge with your pre-adjustment assessment. Repeat. I suppose waiting a couple of days for the first adjustment to "take" /"settle in" (semi-permanent deformation of the neck) before doing a second adjustment; depends on the degree of change from the first adjustment/if zero, try again immediately. This is how I would approach it, but someone else may suggest an alternative method. These are expensive guitars, and you can't be too careful. Good luck.

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... lamps.html

I use these for other things. The 6-inch one by Pittsburgh would probably open wide enough, but the 12-inch might come in handy for something else in the future, and may be a safer bet since it will accommodate a much greater depth/thickness. These are just for holding/simple anchoring, not compressing--the C-type/screw type clamp would be more suitable for this (for like trying to straighten a neck, etc.).

PS - OK, there are no Harbor Freight stores in Canada.... Leaving the link so you can better evaluate my suggested clamp.

3rd PS - I didn’t have clamps all those years ago when I tried to do the old fashioned method of neck adjustment. I think I just stacked / leaned some heavy books on the end of the body....
Thanks for all of this, maxwell! I think I could definitely round up a few clamps like this from my old man. The manual says setting the neck position yourself and then snugging up the truss rods is only necessary with the pre-1984 Ricks? Would you recommend this for the new ones as well?
blackstarNL
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by blackstarNL »

Thanks everyone. I was thinking I had to get the exact gauge to file the nut properly. I should be able to find some type of generic file that will work. I will also see if I can get the relief figured out before tackling the nut.
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

Dirk wrote:A cheapo feeler gauge/files set might be another really cheap option.
I picked one up for the occasional guitar nuts I end up working on.

I recall it easily being sub $10 for the set, on amazon if I recall.
Dirk
That's an option. I didn't know you could buy these already prepared /scored. Years ago, after reading about this on the internet, I bought a Craftsman set (like a book, in automobile tools) of feeler gauges. Of course, the edges weren't scored. So, I did put a lot of "nicks" -- score lines across the entire set of leaf gauges -- but it was a lot of work and time. I pooped out an didn't do a good job, although I did adjust a few nuts with them -- it went vey s-l-o-w-l-y. Nowadays you can get thin metal & diamond Dremel-type cutting disks. The neat thing about this homemade gauge file set, if it actually cuts, is that the leaf blades are so flexible. You just pull out the one or ones that total up to the width you want to cut, squeeze/hold them together as a single unit, and go for it; or go up incrementally if the jump in existing width to desired width is great.

… I just found my gauge files and my diamond needle files. I'll come back and add some photos.
Craftsman feeler gauges. leaf set
Craftsman feeler gauges. leaf set
Feeler gauges with scored edges
Feeler gauges with scored edges
Needle files, jewelry repair
Needle files, jewelry repair
The small needle file is about 1.5 mm thick/wide at midway its length. As you can see, it's more narrow towards the end, and wider towards its base.

I should have made deeper scores in the gauge leaves; probably be more effective / efficient.

PS - I used to have a photo editing program that would allow me to change exposure settings (light, dark, contrast, etc.), but it won't install now that I've "upgraded" to Windows 10.... The photos could be better. I'll have to find a cheapo & easy-to-use program to do that.
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

Dirk - where did you place the "fulcrum" neck support when you flexed the neck? I thought I put mine under the guitar body (as I mentioned above), but that doesn't seem to make sense. I think the best place for it would be under the neck about half way between the nut and the neck-body joint...

Blackstar - STOP.....don't break your guitar!


PS - Here's something... http://www.rickenbacker.com/forum/viewt ... =flex+neck
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Dirk
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by Dirk »

Hey Maxwell,
yeah the 2nd picture is exactly what I'm talking about, feelers with abrasive edges. I'd still start with the neck first.

No neck support at the fulcrum needed. Just clamp the bottom near the bridge, 1 on each side of the bridge would be ideal.
Then the other clamp on the headstock end. I use a nice old school style table to clamp mine to. And I use a towel underneath, and either wood pieces or clamp pads on the clamps.

Again I will warn this technique is meant for vintage folded truss rods not the modern ones. But the concept should work well I would expect, but I don't have a modern Rick to test on.

Actually since we are dealing with 2 rods, there is certainly less chance of damage compared to a single rod. You'd really have to abuse the neck to cause real damage. Work slow and deliberate, and it should work out fine.

Good luck,
Dirk

p.s. it dawned on me I forgot to mention this is all done with the bass tuned to normal tuning and full tension.

p.s.s and if you want a decent Photoshop alternative, check out Gimp, really nice open source editor.
https://www.gimp.org/
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

Yeah, you pretty much have to use the manual flex & adjust technique on a newer model guitar if normal adjustments with a typical nut driver don't work. There are a lot of accounts/photos of guitars that had their truss rod adjustments overdone: bending of the spacer; deformation of the wood beneath the spacer and on the opposite end, anchoring nuts sinking into the wood; acute bending/kinking of the truss rods below the spacer area. Lots of potential problems for guys who overdo it; using a socket wrench = disaster.

I saw your recommendation for Gimp a while back, and I did take a look -- way too much for me, with my simple needs. I only post guitar-related photos, so the most I'll ever do on one photo is: crop, reduce (file) size, adjust exposure & contrast. I'll occasionally add text using MS Paint.

So, I went online a couple of days ago searching for "free" "easy" photo editing and found this, which seems OK. When you open the installed program on your PC (for PCs only) you see a few different options - enhanced programs or add-ons to a paid program. Hovering your mouse cursor over one of these gets you a small pop-up "Purchase" offering link. But the basic photo editor is free, and your hovering cursor over that invites you to "Run." It's OK. I adjusted/lightened those photos I posted above, but the Edit window closed on the post before I could return and replace those poor photos with the better, adjusted ones that I made using this new free editor. (I'm writing all this in case someone else is looking for a simple editor, not you Dirk.)

PS - for Anyone: What's the maximum allowable width (in pixels) of photos uploaded here? I thought I read somewhere that it was 1000 pixels, so I used 990 to be on the safe side.... seems like I could have gone a lot larger.
https://www.inpixio.com/free-photo-editor/
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jps
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by jps »

1280 px x1280px and no larger than 500Kb. I keep it to 1200 px for the longest dimension just for standardization for various needs of mine.
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

jps wrote:1280 px x1280px and no larger than 500Kb. I keep it to 1200 px for the longest dimension just for standardization for various needs of mine.
Thanks. I'll probably upload at 1250 horizontal pixels from now on.
maxwell
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Re: 4003 setup troubles (truss rod not responding, action ba

Post by maxwell »

Well, I don't mean to turn this thread into a photo editor evaluation, but until blackstarNL comes back with a progress report, I thought I'd make a correction for any photo editing noobs who might have taken my poor advice and downloaded/installed the ipixio editor.... Well, that was a mistake. That basic level "free" program has no way of resizing a photo (only if you upgrade to their paid version) - something I didn't notice until I was working on a couple of photos yesterday.

I found, downloaded and installed, "Ashampoo Photo Optimizer 2019." This one will do all that I need, except adding Text. I use MS "Paint" that came with Windows 10 (you have to search ("Paint") for that app -- only "Paint 3D" is shown after hitting the "Start" button of the Win10 task bar). Adding text is the last step I do, if I need to do it, after all other photo editing. (Paint will resize also, but usually I shoot without a flash, and usually have to lighten the photos, etc., hence my need for another photo editor.)

https://www.ashampoo.com/en/usd/pin/155 ... mizer-2019
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