Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

The genius of Chris Squire
miguelbass
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Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

Hello "All good people"

Although I am not sure, it seems to me that Chris Squire was (one of) the first to use a non-standard tuning on an 8-string bass.
The first track I remember are actually two: Changes and Hearts, where the top two strings were tuned as perfect fifths. Chris describes this sound as "kind of gothic" on his Starlicks video. To my knowledge he didn't use this technique by the time of the potato-head 4008, but more so when he played the Ranney bass.
This Ranney bass was also used when playing Roundabout live by the time of the "In the round" tour... (guessing from the fotos on Yesshows), however he wasn't using any non-standard tuning by then.

In the Paris sessions there are one or two songs where an 8-string bass can be heard, but I have trouble to distinguish which bass was used... possibly the Ranney, with standard tuning.

Later on The Ladder, two songs featuring the Ranney bass with Chris alternate tuning (or altered), namely It Will be a Good Day and To be Alive.

The tuning on fifths of the two top strings does limit the playing of a normal bass, you don't want your "single" notes sounding like a power-chord all the time (there are other fifths than perfect ones in a tonality) so Chris has to do most of the regular work on the bottom two strings (normally in octaves) and save the top strings for special places of the song - and no one can do that better than The Fish :)

Listening to these four tracks carefully you can detect when these strings are used and the special effect they produce, hard to describe how it feels, but I would say it's a strong-serious-imponent feel of the parallel fifth.

The intro of Changes comes to mind (especially the live "extra" intro on post 90125 shows), you can hear that "imponent" sound. But the most beautiful example is all of the intro of Hearts and the passage that resolves to "Many moons cascade one river", just after that. The combination of fifths makes the overall harmony sound unique, somewhat impressionistic due to the resulting open chords, and I think no other instrument could achieve that character.

Inspired by that tuning, after I had my 8-string bass (unfortunately it's not a RIC) I took on Chris' idea and I made another change. I tuned the bass like so, but with the top (G) string having an E above it, thus making a major sixth. With this experiment I wrote a tune that was part of the first alt.music.yes CD "Cyberian Khatru". Its tuning makes the whole structure chord-oriented and takes much use of the open strings, it's a very simple tune that I think tries to show the different colours of the 8-string, the sound of the instrument.

So I would invite you of course to take a listen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LxcwOs3qj8

and carry on the discussion, how do you feel for Chris' work on the 8-string, his approach to other tunings, and add some more info to what I wrote here... I for one think that this is one of the most interesting sides of Chris' playing, maybe cause I like so much the sound of the 8-string.

A nice weekend everyone!

Miguel
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weemac
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by weemac »

I love mulitstring basses. I have a Spira 8 string (in fact the only one) and a Waterstone Tp-12 in the elusive "galaxy yo-yo glow"
For live playing I prefer my multi string basses.
Chris's sound on "Going for the one" is yet to be beaten (perhaps Yes will somday do a song called "Going for another one!") :mrgreen:
I'll have to check your tune out Miguel, when I can get to a computer that will play you tube...
Perhaps I'll try for a Rickenbacker 8s one day...
Eden.
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by just_bassics »

Miguel, that was beautiful! So expressive, not overplayed and really exploring the depths of the tuning style. So, when are you coming to the states to give clinics?

What is the make and model of your 8 string, by the way?

We are gearing up over here for the Yes tour which starts in a few days. I'll be seeing them twice and hoping that Chris gives us a good show, with lots of basses and a heavy dose of the RM 1999.
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

True! Chris' 8-string sound on YesShows' Going For The One is something so powerful! The mix does help, after all I think HE mixed it, right? Too bad they didn't mix the album like that! :)

weemac wrote:I love mulitstring basses. I have a Spira 8 string (in fact the only one) and a Waterstone Tp-12 in the elusive "galaxy yo-yo glow"
For live playing I prefer my multi string basses.
Chris's sound on "Going for the one" is yet to be beaten (perhaps Yes will somday do a song called "Going for another one!") :mrgreen:
I'll have to check your tune out Miguel, when I can get to a computer that will play you tube...
Perhaps I'll try for a Rickenbacker 8s one day...
Eden.
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

Hello Jim,

It's a Zon Sonus 8. The sound is really beautiful. Bartolini pickups... the neck is graphite, so I guess I can't adjust it (?) I really needed a little more relief cause I get some string buzz. I tried to replace the original Zon strings (I got 5 or 6 sets) by the Rotosound set , which has a bit more tension (bigger gauge: 45-105) and it worked good. However I have to u$$$$e the original strings and they are a bit too thin for me... as a result there is this guitar-like quality to the sound, which is nice... but I am really used to thicker strings and higher action and relief settings. The most annoying situation is when the octave string moves towards its counterpart and both strings stop vibrating. It spoiled a few takes cause I can't seem to control it. I have to take care of the angle my finger presses both strings and find out the appropriate way to do it without making them touch eachother. I wonder if this happens for example on the 8-string Ricks?

Thanks for your kind words about the music Jim! Glad you appreciated it. And all the best for the forthcoming Yes concerts!

Miguel

just_bassics wrote:Miguel, that was beautiful! So expressive, not overplayed and really exploring the depths of the tuning style. So, when are you coming to the states to give clinics?

What is the make and model of your 8 string, by the way?

We are gearing up over here for the Yes tour which starts in a few days. I'll be seeing them twice and hoping that Chris gives us a good show, with lots of basses and a heavy dose of the RM 1999.
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ram
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by ram »

Miguel, nice tune (you have a great touch) and great idea (the 6th). I have a converted 4004L8 and have just started to mess withy alt tunings. It never really occurred to me – tuning the g to a 6th. To me the cool thing with the 8 is that it ‘fills’ so much that you can get away with having the lower E and A stings tuned to a 5th (dim5ths are fun to plat with). I have almost the opposite issue with the string pairs spreading apart (mostly in the higher frets). I wonder if our techniques are the culprits here?? Stings - I have kinda settled on D’Addario – I take an EXL220 set (95/75/60/40) for the fundamentals and then split the width single strings (approx) for the octave strings. I have had good results with these. I can’t wait to get some time to play around with the 6th on the G – Thanks!!
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weemac
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by weemac »

I just has a listen to the tune!
It's nice to hear a tune that isn't just a bass solo, (it actually sounds like some bizare electric lute)
You play so nicely and very accurate as well. On a multi string bass its all to easy to get a bit rustic and rough.
I like your style!
Eden.
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

ram wrote:Miguel, nice tune (you have a great touch) and great idea (the 6th). I have a converted 4004L8 and have just started to mess withy alt tunings. It never really occurred to me – tuning the g to a 6th. To me the cool thing with the 8 is that it ‘fills’ so much that you can get away with having the lower E and A stings tuned to a 5th (dim5ths are fun to plat with). I have almost the opposite issue with the string pairs spreading apart (mostly in the higher frets). I wonder if our techniques are the culprits here?? Stings - I have kinda settled on D’Addario – I take an EXL220 set (95/75/60/40) for the fundamentals and then split the width single strings (approx) for the octave strings. I have had good results with these. I can’t wait to get some time to play around with the 6th on the G – Thanks!!
Hello Tom, Thank you very much for your comments om my tune. Very interesting how you deal with the opposite problem - yes it can be a matter of technique, also combined with the bass settings, especially the strings I guess, I am thinking for example about spacing between the fundamental and the "octave" string. Our basses surely differ on that. Do you have any photos of your Laredo? That must be a very cool project to do, converting to 8-string. I did not understand what you meant by "split the width single strings». What kind of string are you using exactly for the octaves? Language barrier here I guess :)

Miguel
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

weemac wrote:I just has a listen to the tune!
It's nice to hear a tune that isn't just a bass solo, (it actually sounds like some bizare electric lute)
You play so nicely and very accurate as well. On a multi string bass its all to easy to get a bit rustic and rough.
I like your style!
Eden.
Hello Eden,

I wouldn't call it a solo either, yes it has a kind of ancient sound to it, even if the instrument is quite modern. Maybe because I didn't even use my sansamp, I prefered to record it as direct as possible to retain the natural (acoustic-like) qualities of the instrument's sound and just ... let it ring and vibrate... I'm very glad you liked it - thanks!

Miguel
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ram
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by ram »

Hi Miguel, problem not a language barrier – more likely just my poor execution of the English language. The fundamentals would be the EXL 220’s then the octaves would be single strings which would be approximately ½ of the fundamental width so you’d have something like: E:45-95/A:35-75/D:28-60/G:20-40….

As for technique I was thinking along the lines of engaging the string with a pull or push of the finger as the string is fretted. Of course the setup geometry of the strings and all would be part of the equation as well. What type of bridge do you have on your 8?

The project was wayyyy cool! Forumite Dane Wilder was the headstock designer and his luthier Bruce Johnson was the man who worked the magic.
At Bruce's shop
At Bruce's shop
10.jpg
11.jpg
This Dane's and mine together - the sisters!
This Dane's and mine together - the sisters!
A quickie sound clip (no alt tuning here - sorry) http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music cruise to the bottom where you'll see the headstock.
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woodyng
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by woodyng »

beautiful! the "pastoral' opening theme actually reminded me of steve howe more than chris,very very nice!
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

woodyng wrote:beautiful! the "pastoral' opening theme actually reminded me of steve howe more than chris,very very nice!
You know, when I was composing the song I also thought about it - sounds like Steve rather than Chris :) I am a big fan of Steve's solo records! Especially the earlier ones. The major sixth helps to make it guitar-like.
Glad you enjoyed it Woody!

M
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by miguelbass »

Hi Tom!

Thank you for the beautiful pics! I did check the sound clips, your bass sounds so great! Much more like a real 8-string rock bass than mine! It's a RIC...
As for the bridge, I don't see a brand name there, but I will send you a pic by the most adequate way... I am wondering if it's right to do it here since it's a non-RIC :)
As for the string gauges - all understood! Pity is that here in Portugal the string market is so limited and I have to buy such "rare" products always somewhere abroad. It makes much more sense combining
individual strings as to achieve a near-optimal setup.

I sincerely congratulate you on your beautiful bass. The work carried out by you, Dane Wilder and Bruce Johnson is something Rickenbacker should be very proud of, I think!

Miguel
ram wrote:Hi Miguel, problem not a language barrier – more likely just my poor execution of the English language. The fundamentals would be the EXL 220’s then the octaves would be single strings which would be approximately ½ of the fundamental width so you’d have something like: E:45-95/A:35-75/D:28-60/G:20-40….

As for technique I was thinking along the lines of engaging the string with a pull or push of the finger as the string is fretted. Of course the setup geometry of the strings and all would be part of the equation as well. What type of bridge do you have on your 8?

The project was wayyyy cool! Forumite Dane Wilder was the headstock designer and his luthier Bruce Johnson was the man who worked the magic.
5.jpg
10.jpg
11.jpg
8.jpg
A quickie sound clip (no alt tuning here - sorry) http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music cruise to the bottom where you'll see the headstock.
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ram
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by ram »

Hi Miguel,

Thanks for the kind words – the 4004 is perfect for additional string configurations. Personally I feel if Ric ever does do an 8 string again that would be the platform to use.

I don’t think the picture would be wrong here but there are other places on the forum i.e., Board index ‹ Gear Technical Forums ‹ "Vibrola" Rickenbacker Technical Forum ‹ Forum 51 - The Quest For Tone, where the picture could be posted. I often have troubles figuring the correct place in the forum to post things – Peter or one of our wonderful moderators usually keep me honest with that (moving the thread to the correct topic).

As far as strings – remember I or other members of this forum would probably be more than willing to help in the quest for all things Ric. If you can't get the loacally - maybe one of us could acquire them and mail them to you; whereupon you could return the cost to the buyer. There are some very nice people who participate in the RRF…
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Re: Alternate.. tuning! (8 string)

Post by aceonbass »

I liked your tune Miguel. I definitely felt a little bit of the Howemeister in the upper registers. If I hadn't seen the video, I would have assumed I was hearing a guitar with minimal 8-string bass behind it. It seems whenever I play my Ricky 8, that I get lost in the upper registers myself doing more melodic, guitar sounding stuff. Mr.Tambourine man sounds pretty authentic on it too. I don't think it would be a big deal to post a closeup of the bridge here. I mean, it's on topic and who wants to jump around the forum index looking for it.
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