How often was alder used?

joe_hardman · Post by **joe_hardman** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 1:37 pm

Glen, you hit the nail right on the head, which is why I posted the question above and why I have questioned if there really were as many as 28 325 models made prior to 1959. In addition to the 325 that John Hall owns, my records indicate that V80, V81, V82, V87, V93, V95, V99, V102, V106 and V107 were 325 models. Perhaps you know of one or two more serial numbers, such as the 310, which takes us up to 12 '58 310 - 325 models that I now know of.

I wish I could remember the serial number of that natural finish 345 that I once owned, which as I recall was made of 100% maple. Unfortunately, the guitar passed through my hands about 15 years ago and I did not record serial numbers at the time. However, based on the information that I do have at the moment, it appears that 2V108 is the earliest full sized Capri that I know of that was made in 1958, but as your records indicate, it may not be.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 2:26 pm

Joe and Glen: A most interesting discussion. It seems to me it is easy to get led down the garden path if one assumes that Rickenbacker always assigned sequential serial numbers to the same models. It is likely that they did do this as it is logical and John Hall has made mention of it before. I guess the question is, for any particular model, when did they do this and when did they not. This is why Rickenbacker Research is so important from an historical point of view.

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:19 pm

Joe and Peter, It does seem that this particular run of Ric's from 1958 (V80 onward) holds a special fascination for a some of us. Perhaps one day we'll have a more complete listing. Has anyone actually sighted V80 recently? The assumption is that it's the brownglo solidtop being held by FC HAll in those early '58 Pics. Joe, I do have 2 other short scales in my records, both after V107! I also show V87 as not being a normal 325 - does your info agree? I suspect there may not have been 28 standard 325's either. Where did that number come from anyway? Was it Richard Smith? He was quite interested in this period too I hear. I wonder did he view each invoice or just find the earliest and the latest ones, then assume all in the range where 325's? Not such a good assumption perhaps.

joe_hardman · Post by **joe_hardman** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 4:01 pm

Yes, Glen, I am lumping both standard and long bodies into the same group of serial numbers, because I consider them both to be 325 models. As I recall, "the first 28 theory" is something that has been floating around for years, but I don't recall reading about it in the Smith book. It's probably just another myth or misconception, like we found so may of while working on the 325C58 project. I did forget to include V85 in my earlier list.

joe_hardman · Post by **joe_hardman** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 4:07 pm

Glen, when you put your numbers and mine together for all known 310 - 325 serial numbers, prior to 1959, what are we up to? 14 or 15?

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:44 pm

We know for certain that number V81 is John's '58 325. We also know for certain that V107 is a '58
325. Joe, you said your 335 is number 2V108? Isn't it just V108? I had number V121 which was a 345. The thing I'm getting at is all guitars
numbered V80-V121 do not have the 2 or 3 prefix. I believe these are the first Rickenbacker hollow bodies. Anything starting with a 2 or 3 is later.
Such as the blonde, long body prototype they have identified in the Japanese book as a '57. I believe that guitar is a later '58 as it has the number 2T100. The long-body 325 is number V87 so that is one of the original 28, which would also include the Polynesian as I believe it's serial number starts with a V. What are the serial numbers of the later 310 and 325 Glen? They may start with a 2 or 3 and not be a part of this original batch of 28.

joe_hardman · Post by **joe_hardman** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 6:17 pm

Larry, my 335's serial number is 2V108. There is a "2" in front of the V108 for sure. If it's not the first full scale Capri made during '58, then could it be the first one in '58 with a numeral before the "V"?

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 6:36 pm

Joe and Larry, My total including the longbody is actually 13, not counting the polynesian,John Hall's 325, or Jamie's, as I have no serial numbers for them. V85 is a new one to me Joe. Email me about this one if you like - sounds very interesting.

Larry, both of those post V107 numbers are just plain VXXX, no doubt in my mind that they should be counted with the rest.

Regarding the '2' prior to the V my impression is that with no prefix numeral it was given that it was a 3 pickup instrument. For variation the extra numeral comes into play. This could explain 2T100 and Joe's 2V108

This is getting really interesting! Well done guys.

jwilli · Post by **jwilli** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:12 pm

Just to throw another "curve" in the '58 serial series: David McLaughlin's serial number for his '58 360F is 2LV 126.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:13 pm

I see where you're coming from Glen, and that's a very good point. No number means 3 pick-ups and 2 in front means a 2 pick-up guitar. Models 325,
345 and 375 would start with a V and Models 315,
335 and 365 would start with a 2. But then the post V108 guitar that is supposed to be a 310 or
315 should start with a 2, correct? You stated it starts with a V so that doesn't fit. Other than that, the theory makes good sense and Joe's 335 which is 2V108 and the prototype 2T100 would fit. John Hall may have been correct when he said we have too much time on our hands! But this is all interesting stuff for us Rickenbacker
nuts.

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:48 pm

Damn, I was hoping so much that you wouldn't notice that Larry. Nothing gets by you though...lol

Yes that is a 310 and it should, if my theory is correct, have a prefix '2'. I was thinking that that due to it being a 'shorty' like the 325's it was just given one of their plates. And it's true that by approx ?V120 onward they had given up the no prefix idea and started using a '3' prefix anyway. Seems that the system was evolving as they produced.

John, David's serial number is already in my data and it fits nicely.

joe_hardman · Post by **joe_hardman** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:48 pm

Gentlemen, on page 227 of the Smith book, paragraph two, it says "The first Capris, like early 1958 Model 325 #V85", did not have a pickup designation number before the letter". Not only do we learn that V85 was a 325, we also learn that early Capri models did not have the number "2" or "3" (pickup designation) before the "V", which is why I believe my 335 #2V108 may be the first Capri to have a prefix number. Apparently the first 28 Capris did not have prefix numbers and a pickup designation number before the letter "V" first appeared following #V107. So, did '58 310 - 325 models with serial numbers following model 335 #2V108 have a pickup prefix or did they receive a 3/4 Size "V" only serial number, like the solid bodies (see page 226 of the Smith book)?

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:39 pm

Thanks for clearing up the point about short scale guitars not having a pickup numeral. That explains that '58 310. By my data 2V108 could be the first capri with a prefix numeral. I'm still wondering about 2T100(330Mg). It could also be the first if it was in fact numbered in '58. The only other place it could fit is 1960, and that seems a little late. I remember seeing that mention of V85 there, at the time I discounted it as I thought he was making it up as an example, but on re-reading it does look like he was quoting an invoice - shame he didn't mention it's finish. Have a look again on pg 226. I see mention of a '58 Bass, B8113. I have this at number 113 in the range. Wondering about it though.

Here's another thing I wonder about. The range started at V80 with '8' as the year 1958 identifier. Why did the numbering proceed V80,V81......V89,V90,V91...etc
By rights it should have gone V80,V81......V89,V810,V811,V812...etc
A blunder by the jackplate stamper methinks...lol

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:39 am

Good points everyone. Good point on that V85 Joe, I forgot about that one. There's 3 more we can add. I just missed a brown sunburst one from Gruhn Guitars in about '84. And our friend Jack Burch saw a blonde, no f-hole Lennon style at the Texas Guitar Show about 10 years ago. It had a replaced back and the price was $17000. Why didn't he get the serial number and call me? Elderly Instruments sold a brown sunburst one about 4-5 years ago for $1500! I believe it went to Japan. Although I don't have serial numbers for these guitars, I do know they exist somewhere. I think you're correct about V89 to V810... Glen. It's still possible V80 to V107 is the first batch of 28 325's with a long-body prototype and Polynesian and maybe a few more odd V serial number guitars thrown in, in that range. Aren't we up to about 18 with the 3 I just mentioned and the Polynesian guitar? That's only 10 not accounted for, which isn't too
bad considering we're looking back 43 years.

glen_l · Post by **glen_l** » Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:55 pm

Adding in the $17K Natural Solidtop that was seen in Texas it brings my total to 16 definate 325's. I already have the one sold by Elderly on file, but I don't feel right including that brownglo one you missed in '84 Larry as it could be in my data by it's current owner. I'm counting Jamie's and John's, despite having no serial numbers.