How often was alder used?

The short-scale model that changed history

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Postby (joe_hardman) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:48 pm

Larry & Glen, if Glen knows of a mandolin with a serial number between V80 and V107, does that not kill the old "first 28 were 325 models" theory?
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Postby (glen_l) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:30 pm

Richard Smith's Rickenbacker book. pg 225

"M101 was a 1958 Mandolin"

Also the Polynesian Combo850 (pg 147) See the elongated jackplate. It's gotta be V8?. The last digit please, anyone, Mr Hall? pretty please.....
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Postby (larrywassgren) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 5:53 pm

Alright Glen, thanks for posting that serial number! The M would stand for mandolin, just like
a number starting with B is for a bass guitar. It seems to me mandolins had their own set of numbers, basses had their own set of numbers, and 325 guitars started with V and had their own set of numbers. Sometimes these numbers would be the same, as with M101 having the same number as V101. But of course M101 was a mandolin and V101 was a 325. Both built in 1958 and having the same number. Any thoughts on this?
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Postby (glen_l) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:10 pm

hmmmmmm

just wondering whether Ric produced that many Mandolins in 1958

M80, M81......M100, M101

Also the fact that none of these other Mandolins show up on the Registry, and that the number 101 drops into a gap without clashing a known 325. Not conclusive I know.

Also the Bass "B8113" drops into position 113 cleanly. Were that many basses made in '58? Why are none of them on the registry?
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Postby (larrywassgren) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:30 pm

I believe I read somewhere they only made 8(?)
mandolins in '58 and no more until they reissued
them a few years ago. I would imagine they started numbering the mandolins with M100 and then
went through to M107 which would be the last.
They should have started the number system for mandolins at M8100, but for whatever reason left
the 8 off(which would have stood for '58). The
first bass was numbered B7100, so it started with
100 and the numbers ran into '58 and ended at
B8113. It was the fourteenth and last that started in the series of basses in '57. This is why I think the series of 28 325's did start with
V80 and end with V107. Things were done in series
back then, starting at 80 or 100 or whatever number they chose!?
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Postby (glen_l) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:57 pm

I stand corrected on both counts then. The book does state that B8113 was the 14th in the series - I really must learn to read the full context of these things.

I see how the mandolin series would follow suit. I also recall reading that only 8 were made in '58.

Possibly we should also move 2T100 from this '58 series to 1960 where it may belong if it sat around as a proto for a couple of years. It is a strange guitar after all.

The next conclusion I come to is that there are more than 28 '58 325's. 2V108 is an odd one. That's good news isn't it. Hope for us desperado's yet....lol
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Postby (larrywassgren) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 9:23 pm

Hey, we're all trying to figure this out together.
I have always thought that 2T100 didn't belong because of that 2 and also the T. Every guitar we have seen from V80 - V107 has 3 pick-ups and a vibrato(Kauffman). I think 2T100 was finished off
a little later(like '60). A guy I know and trust said he owned it for a short time and it came out of the Rickenbacker museum about 20 years ago. So it was not actually sold back in the late '50's.
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Postby (joe_hardman) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 10:42 pm

IMHO this is one of the more enlightening discussions we've had to date. With the elimination of mandolin and bass models from the discussion, the Polynesian Combo 850, number "V8?", still kills "the first 28 were 325 models theory" and since there are still unaccounted for guitars in the V80 through V107 serial number range, it is conceivable that one or more could be something other than a 325 model. I do not think we have reached the point where we can conclude with any degree of certainty how many 325 models were made in 1958, but I have a gut feeling there may have been less than 28 standard body 325 models produced that year. I've lost track of how many standard body 325 models have been accounted for during this discussion, but even if we have as many as 14, where are the others and why haven't they surfaced during the 30+ years that Larry and I have been searching for them? Some of the missing 325's may have perished, some may still be hidden in attics and some may be in the hands of low profile collectors, but one would think with the popularity of vintage guitars in general during the past 25 years more would have surfaced by now. The missing '58 325 models reminds me of discussions we've had in the past regarding the existence of 60's flat 325 models and Rose Morris 1996 two o'clock "f" hole models. Where are they, where are they, where are they?
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Postby (rick12dr) » Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:25 pm

Like John Hall said earlier, "You guys think Way too much".Oh, well, since you have to think anyway, might as well be about what ya like.
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Postby (tblair) » Fri Feb 16, 2001 1:03 am

Do we know for sure that the Polynesian guitar has a V8# serial number? Do we know for sure that it was designated as an 850 by the factory?

It does have a 325 neck, and with the V serial number I think it becomes a 325 with a carved top- unless the factory had a different designation for it. I guess a lot of it depends on how much routing was done to the body.
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Postby (glen_l) » Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:53 am

I love the look of that Polynesian guitar too. It really is almost a 325 isn't it. I see that it probably has 2 pot 325 electronics also, as there is only the one toggle switch. There's also a mention that it originally had only 2 pickups, like an 850 (or 315). I wonder how much internal routing there is and hence, how heavy? Also wonder whether it has a complete ply back or a cover plate like the combos. I know David Mc. is a huge fan of this little baby. Can you tell us anything more about it David? Do you regard it as a special 325 or a special combo850? Is the serial number known?
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Postby (joe_hardman) » Fri Feb 16, 2001 8:17 am

We do know that Richard Smith placed the Polynesian in the "Solid Body Standard Guitars" section of his book and described it on page 147 as follows: "This guitar was the same Combo 850 played by the Polynesians after the factory affixed a third pickup." To say the Polynesian model is similar to a 315 or 325 is like saying a tigar is similar to a house cat. Same family, but different animals altogether.
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Postby (larrywassgren) » Fri Feb 16, 2001 10:18 am

But then Joe, we know that the long-body prototype
is definitely number V87, and it really isn't a
325 if we want to get down to details. The body
is too long on it. The top is carved on the
Polynesian. Besides that, they are both 325's.
Maybe the Polynesian was listed first as an 850(a
two pick-up Combo) and then a second time as a 325, after the third pick-up was added. I guess that would be possible as it seems to have sat around awhile before the Polynesians posed with it and bought it after adding a third pick-up.
I guess a good point here is, most guitars numbered V80-V107 were normal 325 guitars but there were a few odd ones thrown into this original batch of 28?
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Postby (joe_hardman) » Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:46 pm

Larry, I also believe it is safe to say that most guitars with V80 through V107 serial numbers may have been both standard and long body 325 models, but until we know the models associated with the missing serial numbers in question, the evidence is not conclusive in my opinion. Some of the theories we have discussed over the years have proven to be true and others, like V81 was made of maple and not alder, were proven to be false, which is why there is no substitute for tangible evidence. I truly do hope the first 28 guitars made during '58 were the Polynesian and 325 models, which would prove 2V108 was the first full scale Capri made that year.
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Postby (leftybass) » Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:36 am

I thought I'd bring this thread up due the current thread above on the C-Series 325...interesting reading here on the wood used in Lennon's 1958 325...
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