Tony, I would imagine all three types of necks were made through this 'transitional' period. The only problem I have with the late '62/early '63 batch theory is I have never seen a 325 in any form with a '62 or '63 serial number. The only known solid tops from '64 are Lennon's and the fire-glo one marked 'sample' inside which is in Japan. At this point in time(late '62) they would not have known Lennon was playing a solid top '58 and produced a solid top 325 to replace his original(which happened about a year later).
I still say where are all these guitars? I don't buy the idea that they are in the hands of a few
millionaire collectors who have hoarded them. Joe and I have been searching for these guitars for over 20 years now and we know every dealer in the country and were on their want lists and in contact with them all the time. We did turn up some very nice guitars, but we never had to compete with anybody until lately(the last 5 years or so) to get them.
F-hole Position in Rare Vintage 325 Models
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
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Joe_Hardman
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Joe_Hardman
Glenn, like you, April is latest '64 two o'clock "f" hole 1996 that I have on record. On one hand we are told that Rose-Morris models were made in batches, which might indicate a number of 1996 two o'clock "f" hole models were produced during the first four months of '64 and perhaps late '63, yet on the other hand you have only been able to document 10 examples to date. Are there that many '64 two o'clock sound hole models still hiding under beds or that have perished or are we perhaps giving Rickenbacker more credit for producing 325 / 1996 models prior to May '64 than we should? I tend to think 325 / 1996 models were made in relatively small batches at first and that it was not until May before the factory really started cranking out 325 / 1996 models in volume.
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larrywassgren
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 401
- Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 8:34 pm
Yes, Joe, it has been a lot of fun. Let's keep searching. Maybe the first batch of 'sample' 1996
guitars sent to Rose Morris in January of '64 was
very small, 2 or 3 2 o'clock f-hole guitars? The long scale guitars sent over had the 1 o'clock f-holes. The next batch of 1996's may have had the last 7-10 leftover bodies and some with the new
1 o'clock f-holes? I can't count more than a dozen 2 o'clocks that I've seen over the years.
guitars sent to Rose Morris in January of '64 was
very small, 2 or 3 2 o'clock f-hole guitars? The long scale guitars sent over had the 1 o'clock f-holes. The next batch of 1996's may have had the last 7-10 leftover bodies and some with the new
1 o'clock f-holes? I can't count more than a dozen 2 o'clocks that I've seen over the years.
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Joe_Hardman
Larry, you may very well be correct and I don't know of as many two o'clock sound hole models, with '64 serial numbers, as you and Glen apparently do. In fact, I know of more '58 325 models than '64 two o'clock models. The more we discuss the subject, I am beginning to think that 325 production may have been extremely limited during the first quarter of '64, which if in fact that is true, it certainly would support the left over body theory, wouldn't it?
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Joe_Hardman
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Joe_Hardman
Thank you, Glen. So, if we include the 325/12 that's a total of four that you know of, which have jack plates from the first quarter of '64? John's 325 (DB122), John's 325/12, the fireglo flat top marked "Sample" and one other, correct? I suspect the other one is Rose-Morris two o'clock "f" hole model that is in Japan and owned by the same fellow who owns the fireglo flat top marked "sample".
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Nick_Thiel
My 2 cents.
Having just spent the last 6 years working in the wood manufacturing business. I can tell you that it isn't likely that a cut body sitting around for several years would be used in a standard production unless a serious attempt was made to preserve/store it properly by the factory. It is true that many manufacturers use aged woods in their production, but once a body is cut is should be used for production or stored properly to avoid all of the nasties that will occur to the wood. It's a good theory, but you need to find out if the factory kept, stored and used wooden cut parts from years previous. If you have ever been to a guitar factory you will have noticed large numbers of necks and bodies lying around waiting for assembly. No doubt this is true when we are talking about a late '50s Ric production too. This would explain the same short scale alder necks appearing on Combos and 325s as well as maple necks. I don't know if there is any correct spec when talking about these guitars, each guitar has it's own special characteristics.
Having just spent the last 6 years working in the wood manufacturing business. I can tell you that it isn't likely that a cut body sitting around for several years would be used in a standard production unless a serious attempt was made to preserve/store it properly by the factory. It is true that many manufacturers use aged woods in their production, but once a body is cut is should be used for production or stored properly to avoid all of the nasties that will occur to the wood. It's a good theory, but you need to find out if the factory kept, stored and used wooden cut parts from years previous. If you have ever been to a guitar factory you will have noticed large numbers of necks and bodies lying around waiting for assembly. No doubt this is true when we are talking about a late '50s Ric production too. This would explain the same short scale alder necks appearing on Combos and 325s as well as maple necks. I don't know if there is any correct spec when talking about these guitars, each guitar has it's own special characteristics.
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Joe_Hardman
Nick, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, when I toured the old factory in the mid 1980's there were about 25, 30 or even more old bodies hanging on a wall and from the rafters, which were made during the 50's and 60's. The bodies were later completed and in some cases finished in the late 80's, before many of them were eventually sold through Route 66 Guitars. Needless to say the bodies withstood the test of time very well in Santa Ana.
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Nick_Thiel
Wow, that is surprising to me that the wood wasn't completely screwed after hanging there for years. We had parts that sat around for half a year that had to be tossed because the wood had completely warped or dried out, and this is a very humid climate up here off of lake Huron. I'd love to see one of these guitars today, to see how they held up. Do we know where any of them are or went?
When I is was Germany a few months back, Christian Benker took me to the old Hofner factory site where the family home is located on the same property. There were tons of NOS bodies from the '50s lying around but all of them were finished minus the hardware. Needless to say, I wishing for some very deep pockets that day.
When I is was Germany a few months back, Christian Benker took me to the old Hofner factory site where the family home is located on the same property. There were tons of NOS bodies from the '50s lying around but all of them were finished minus the hardware. Needless to say, I wishing for some very deep pockets that day.
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Joe_Hardman
Nick, you may have seen some of them when you visited the RIC museum and didn't even know it, because I don't think John disposed of all of them. Scott Jennings of Route 66 Guitars might remember who he sold the others to.
For all I know Larry Wassgren, who tends to save anything RIC and Beatle related, may still have the Route 66 sales list, which was sent to prospective buyers. What about it Larry?
For all I know Larry Wassgren, who tends to save anything RIC and Beatle related, may still have the Route 66 sales list, which was sent to prospective buyers. What about it Larry?
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larrywassgren
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 401
- Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 8:34 pm
Your right Joe, I do save everything and I'm sure I have that in my closet but it will take awhile to get to it. I remember clearly there were no 60's or earlier 325's finished off for Route 66.
That was the first thing I looked for on the list
and you and I would have been fighting over those!
The second thing would have been a 60's 360/12 O.S. and there were none of those either. I agree with you Joe, those bodies would have held up well. Rickenbacker makes great guitars and they know what they are doing when it comes to wood. An unfinished guitar won't warp any faster than a finished one, as long as the wood was dry to begin with.
That was the first thing I looked for on the list
and you and I would have been fighting over those!
The second thing would have been a 60's 360/12 O.S. and there were none of those either. I agree with you Joe, those bodies would have held up well. Rickenbacker makes great guitars and they know what they are doing when it comes to wood. An unfinished guitar won't warp any faster than a finished one, as long as the wood was dry to begin with.