F-hole Position in Rare Vintage 325 Models
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Joe_Hardman
Larry, I basically embrace your theory and I suspect there may have been some blank early 60's bodies hanging from the rafters of the factory that may have had attached necks. I remember seeing unfinished guitars form the 50's and 60's hanging from the rafters and on a wall when I toured the old factory about 15 years ago, so I believe there is merit to your theory. However, relatively speeking, the factory was not particularly spacious and I did not observe much storage space at all. Once a batch of guitars were finished, they were transported several miles or so away to the warehouse and general office complex, where they awaited shipment to dealers. If you look at the factory tour, pictured in the Japanese Rickenbacker book, you will see that RIC, like other major guitar manufactures, made bodies, necks, pickups, etc. in batches and usually well in advance of final assembly. Each factory would have an area where necessary components were stored. Therefore, I suspect that there were bodies, necks, etc., which were actually made in '63 or before, that were on hand when guitars were being assembled during '64. Once the decision was made to switch over to round heel necks, I suspect there was still a quantity of square heel necks available for use and from what I have observed over the years, it appears that the stock of square heel necks was probably depleted sometime during the first quarter of '64. If there are any examples of 60's guitars with square heel necks, made after that period, I believe they are old necks that were simply over looked during the transition period.
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larrywassgren
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I pretty much agree with you on all this Joe. I guess we're all trying to make the best educated guesses here. We'll probably come up with more questions than answers. Another good question would be 'why' did they switch from square heels to rounded heels? We'll have to think on that one! I still think the theory that they went from 2 o'clock to 1 o'clock f-holes because they misplaced or lost the 2 o'clock pattern is correct. I can't think of any other reason. The question about how many leftover bodies is another good one to debate. I do know that I owned 2 '57 Combo 400's over the years that were fire-glo. They were original, with '57 serial numbers, but were finished off in the early 60's
as fire-glo wasn't done until some time in '60.
And the necks on these guitars were factory painted fire-glo, not left blonde like they would have been in '57. 325 bodies weren't any more special back then so I'm sure they had some of those leftover just like the Combo 400's. I also had a mint '57 Combo 600 that came with an original case, strap, polish cloth and cord. The case and accessories were from '62 or later, so this guitar sat around finished for at least 5 years. If you look at the price list from Rickenbacker for 1962 they still listed Combo 600 and 800 guitars for sale, these were left over '57 new stock. I believe that's how the Rickenbacker museum ended up with so many of these Combo guitars, they couldn't sell them back then. Of course now they are highly collectible. And remember the Route 66 fiasco from about 12 years ago? There were quite a few left over bodies finished off with new parts. I guess the point I'm trying to make is there seems to be quite a few guitars that sat around at the factory for quite awhile. There would probably have been more early 310 bodies sitting around longer if not for John Lennon. In late '63 and early '64 there was a reason to finish off the few that were sitting around unfinished. They sent these as the first samples to Rose Morris in January of '64. These were the leftover bodies with 2 o'clock f-holes from '59-'61. They then had to start producing a guitar they hadn't made since maybe as early as '59, so that's why we see the differences in the mid-60's production 325's? Just my thoughts, subject to change?
as fire-glo wasn't done until some time in '60.
And the necks on these guitars were factory painted fire-glo, not left blonde like they would have been in '57. 325 bodies weren't any more special back then so I'm sure they had some of those leftover just like the Combo 400's. I also had a mint '57 Combo 600 that came with an original case, strap, polish cloth and cord. The case and accessories were from '62 or later, so this guitar sat around finished for at least 5 years. If you look at the price list from Rickenbacker for 1962 they still listed Combo 600 and 800 guitars for sale, these were left over '57 new stock. I believe that's how the Rickenbacker museum ended up with so many of these Combo guitars, they couldn't sell them back then. Of course now they are highly collectible. And remember the Route 66 fiasco from about 12 years ago? There were quite a few left over bodies finished off with new parts. I guess the point I'm trying to make is there seems to be quite a few guitars that sat around at the factory for quite awhile. There would probably have been more early 310 bodies sitting around longer if not for John Lennon. In late '63 and early '64 there was a reason to finish off the few that were sitting around unfinished. They sent these as the first samples to Rose Morris in January of '64. These were the leftover bodies with 2 o'clock f-holes from '59-'61. They then had to start producing a guitar they hadn't made since maybe as early as '59, so that's why we see the differences in the mid-60's production 325's? Just my thoughts, subject to change?
Glen: I think your logic pertaining to the serial numbers is correct, however, the sequential plan of the numbering may not always have been born out in the practical case. Human error is always part of the mix as instruments come off the assembly line and numbers are assigned. I would love to hear from folks who witnessed this part of the operation first hand. So here we are trying to make sense of sequences of instruments that were, perhaps, not always made in the order in which the jackplates might suggest.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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larrywassgren
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larrywassgren
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I meant to say the 2 should not be there. The serial numbers to at least V121 did not have the number 2 or 3 at the beginning, which meant 2 or 3 pick-ups. I would think all the V80 to V107
325's were 3 pick-up guitars. Maybe they didn't
start using the 2 or 3 prefix until they started making both 2 and 3 pick-up guitars, which would be after the first 28 hollow body guitars which were '58 325's?
325's were 3 pick-up guitars. Maybe they didn't
start using the 2 or 3 prefix until they started making both 2 and 3 pick-up guitars, which would be after the first 28 hollow body guitars which were '58 325's?
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Joe_Hardman
While we are in a speculative state of mind, I'll throw my theory into the ring for consideration, regarding 325 neck heel and "believe" hole changes made during early 1964. I tend to believe the changes we are discussing were made as part of Rickenbacker's ongoing effort to improve its product line, which has occurred on a regular since the 1950's. To my eye the one o'clock "f" hole is more in keeping with the appearance of the "f" holes on Rose Morris 1997 and 1998 models and I tend to belive that RIC changed the shape and placement of 325 "f" holes for purely cosmetic reasons. The change from square to round heel necks could very well have been for cosmetic reasons as well or simply because the factory may have acquired a new piece of machinery that enabled it to produce a more refined looking heel.
Another factor that has not been discussed so far is the fact that during the 50's and 60's American consumers wanted and expected manufacturers to produce new and innovative products. Everyone from automotive to guitar manufacturers felt the competitive pressures to update and change product lines on an annual basis, in order to retain and attract customers. Most Americans embraced the idea that "newer is better" and change was generally considered good in those days. Air lines began to replace railroads, jet travel was later introduced and by the time The Beatles appeared on the Sullivan show, America and Russia had launched men into space. Changes were taking place everywhere, including the orange groves of Santa Ana, California, and we loved it at the time. Now I've really dated myself.
Another factor that has not been discussed so far is the fact that during the 50's and 60's American consumers wanted and expected manufacturers to produce new and innovative products. Everyone from automotive to guitar manufacturers felt the competitive pressures to update and change product lines on an annual basis, in order to retain and attract customers. Most Americans embraced the idea that "newer is better" and change was generally considered good in those days. Air lines began to replace railroads, jet travel was later introduced and by the time The Beatles appeared on the Sullivan show, America and Russia had launched men into space. Changes were taking place everywhere, including the orange groves of Santa Ana, California, and we loved it at the time. Now I've really dated myself.
You guys think too much and have way too much time on your hands.
The only thing I'll interject for your perusal is the absolute fact that all Rose-Morris guitars were produced sequentially at the same time, i.e. in one batch at a time against each of their orders. This is due to the regulations of that era regarding manufacturer's excise tax; goods for export were not taxed if produced together and specifically for export.
The only thing I'll interject for your perusal is the absolute fact that all Rose-Morris guitars were produced sequentially at the same time, i.e. in one batch at a time against each of their orders. This is due to the regulations of that era regarding manufacturer's excise tax; goods for export were not taxed if produced together and specifically for export.
Joe; as to reasons for the neck heel shapes;
square vs rounded, I have no theories, but I Can tell you, having been in the Rick woodshop, and seeing Dick Burke himself up close do the neck heel carving, that the simple machine used to do this[which Dick did freehand holding the neck blank against a rotating cutterhead]would not care What shape you wanted to see; it could do either.Essentially, the machine was a large motor,
on a pedestal, with the axle for mounting a pulley or whatever, [same thing used with tube sanders and flap sanders]sticking out horizontally,and a cutter that was maybe 2" in
diameter by 3" long, with multiple cutting edges that sort of looked like part of a gear mechanism.Very simple looking.I asked him once what this machine was while he was sitting down doing a bunch of neck heels, and he said"it's a carving machine", and then proceeded to tell me to watch out around it if it was going,as it would
"rip yer guts out if you walked into it".I learned a healthy respect for the machinery we had
there.
square vs rounded, I have no theories, but I Can tell you, having been in the Rick woodshop, and seeing Dick Burke himself up close do the neck heel carving, that the simple machine used to do this[which Dick did freehand holding the neck blank against a rotating cutterhead]would not care What shape you wanted to see; it could do either.Essentially, the machine was a large motor,
on a pedestal, with the axle for mounting a pulley or whatever, [same thing used with tube sanders and flap sanders]sticking out horizontally,and a cutter that was maybe 2" in
diameter by 3" long, with multiple cutting edges that sort of looked like part of a gear mechanism.Very simple looking.I asked him once what this machine was while he was sitting down doing a bunch of neck heels, and he said"it's a carving machine", and then proceeded to tell me to watch out around it if it was going,as it would
"rip yer guts out if you walked into it".I learned a healthy respect for the machinery we had
there.
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larrywassgren
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I don't have too much time on my hands, but I probably do think too much about old Rickenbacker guitars. So, if the first batch of sample 1996's were made in sequence in late '63 and shipped to
Rose Morris in January of '64(to be exempt from
export tax), they had to be guitars manufactured
in late '63 with 2 o'clock f-holes. We still don't know why there was a change from 1 to 2 o'clock f-holes on short scale 325's and probably never will. The full scale export guitars all had the same 1 o'clock f-hole shape as the 325's
that were manufactured in '64. I've never seen an early '64 1997, 1998 or 1993 with a 2 o'clock f-hole. So the samples shipped in January of '64 must have been all 325's? What year did Dick Burke start working for Rickenbacker? Maybe he's
the one that decided it was easier to shape a round heel than a square heel? This is all fun stuff which we can only speculate on.
Rose Morris in January of '64(to be exempt from
export tax), they had to be guitars manufactured
in late '63 with 2 o'clock f-holes. We still don't know why there was a change from 1 to 2 o'clock f-holes on short scale 325's and probably never will. The full scale export guitars all had the same 1 o'clock f-hole shape as the 325's
that were manufactured in '64. I've never seen an early '64 1997, 1998 or 1993 with a 2 o'clock f-hole. So the samples shipped in January of '64 must have been all 325's? What year did Dick Burke start working for Rickenbacker? Maybe he's
the one that decided it was easier to shape a round heel than a square heel? This is all fun stuff which we can only speculate on.
John, Joe, Glen, Don, Larry and All: Time spent thinking about Rickenbackers is time well spent.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Joe_Hardman
Dr., thanks for sharing your experience with us regarding the carving machine in the factory and Dick Burke. It would seem that someone, either in management or in the plant made a conscious decision to change the shape of neck heels, which brings us back to where this discussion began. We still do not know exactly when or why the change occurred. The more we discuss neck heel shapes and 325 / R.- M. 1996 "f" hole placements it appears to me that Dick Burke may be one of the few individuals who could shed some some light on the subject. Is Dick still alive and is there anyone we know who could interview him?
Larry, I have not ever seen a R.- M. 1997 or 1998 model with anything other than a standard one o'clock 'f" and I do not belive either model ever experienced a change in "f" hole position, like the 1996 model. The fact that R.- M. orders were produced one batch at a time and we know there are two o'clock "f" hole 1996 models with serial numbers as late as April 1964, it is possible there were multiple batches of 1996 models made with two o'clock "f" holes. (Glen, do you know of any two o'clock "f" hole models with serial numbers later than April 1964?) This is where I have a slight problem with the left over body theory, because although some early 60's bodies may have been on hand in late '63 or early '64, did RIC really have enough old bodies to last until the round heel neck - April serial number portion of the year? That seems like a heck of a lot of left over bodies to me, but who knows?
Larry, I have not ever seen a R.- M. 1997 or 1998 model with anything other than a standard one o'clock 'f" and I do not belive either model ever experienced a change in "f" hole position, like the 1996 model. The fact that R.- M. orders were produced one batch at a time and we know there are two o'clock "f" hole 1996 models with serial numbers as late as April 1964, it is possible there were multiple batches of 1996 models made with two o'clock "f" holes. (Glen, do you know of any two o'clock "f" hole models with serial numbers later than April 1964?) This is where I have a slight problem with the left over body theory, because although some early 60's bodies may have been on hand in late '63 or early '64, did RIC really have enough old bodies to last until the round heel neck - April serial number portion of the year? That seems like a heck of a lot of left over bodies to me, but who knows?
Joe, the last RM1996 in my private data with a 2 o'clock soundhole is from April '64 (discounting greg's). I've paid particular attention to this point in my records too. The May 1996's I have on record so far(5 units) all have 1 o'clock sound holes. I have 30 units for 1964 so far - there's a lot more out there. 10 units from '64 have 2 o'clock soundholes.
That is a lot of leftover bodies to find isn't it. Could be as many as 50. Perhaps it's that they simply kept making the soundholes the same as they always had on 1996's (why make a new template?). Until Rose Morris pointed out that the 1996's didn't match the 1997's, 1998's etc. For display purposes it's a valid critisism for RM to raise. They would also like the most modern looking configuration for their new line - I agree.
What about the volute issue? Early '64 325(1996) don't have volute. Perhaps The heel and volute are linked. Did Ric revamp the neck configuration in early '64 right across their range - rounding the heels and introducing a volute detail to combat the headstock breakage issue????
Yes - I have far too much time on my hands today -but it's Sunday morning down here!
That is a lot of leftover bodies to find isn't it. Could be as many as 50. Perhaps it's that they simply kept making the soundholes the same as they always had on 1996's (why make a new template?). Until Rose Morris pointed out that the 1996's didn't match the 1997's, 1998's etc. For display purposes it's a valid critisism for RM to raise. They would also like the most modern looking configuration for their new line - I agree.
What about the volute issue? Early '64 325(1996) don't have volute. Perhaps The heel and volute are linked. Did Ric revamp the neck configuration in early '64 right across their range - rounding the heels and introducing a volute detail to combat the headstock breakage issue????
Yes - I have far too much time on my hands today -but it's Sunday morning down here!
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Tonybaconday
If you look in the Rittor book, you will see a 1964 RM1996 with VOLUTE and a SQUARE HEEL. So here's a question for you EXPERTS:
Are there 3 neck possibilities for a 1963/64 325/1996?
1) Square heel no volute
2) Square heel with volute
3) Round heel with volute
A well known but difficult to contact 325/1996 expert from outside of the UK/USA/CAN/AUS, believes that there were at least one and maybe two batches of 325 style guitars run in the 1962-64 time frame from which the plain top and 2 o'clock FHOLE guitars could come from.
One batch in late 1962/early 1963 from which John's plain top body came from, and the other later in 1963 or early 1964 from which the balance of the RM1996 2 o'clock f-hole guitars could have come from. Of course if there were only one batch, then that only reduces the potential count.
The 1967 guitar is a mystery. Is there a feature which could link the body to the guitars from 1964 other than the FHOLE. Some seem to think so, but what would that feature be?
Rickenbacker has all of the info if they wanted to clear the air on this.
Are there 3 neck possibilities for a 1963/64 325/1996?
1) Square heel no volute
2) Square heel with volute
3) Round heel with volute
A well known but difficult to contact 325/1996 expert from outside of the UK/USA/CAN/AUS, believes that there were at least one and maybe two batches of 325 style guitars run in the 1962-64 time frame from which the plain top and 2 o'clock FHOLE guitars could come from.
One batch in late 1962/early 1963 from which John's plain top body came from, and the other later in 1963 or early 1964 from which the balance of the RM1996 2 o'clock f-hole guitars could have come from. Of course if there were only one batch, then that only reduces the potential count.
The 1967 guitar is a mystery. Is there a feature which could link the body to the guitars from 1964 other than the FHOLE. Some seem to think so, but what would that feature be?
Rickenbacker has all of the info if they wanted to clear the air on this.
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larrywassgren
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Glen, If you look at it from my way of thinking, if they were making 2 o'clock f-hole 325's in late
'63 and early '64, why wouldn't the 1997 and 1998 guitars have the same 2 o'clock f-hole? Why have
one f-hole for short scale and a different f-hole shape for long scale guitars? That's why I think they were leftover bodies. There is not a lot of
'leftover' 2 o'clock 1996's to be counted for. If you know of 10, that's about all I've seen over the years and that could be it. All the rest could be 1 o'clock. Tony, have you ever seen another solid-top '64 besides John Lennon's and the fire-glo sample that is in Japan?
'63 and early '64, why wouldn't the 1997 and 1998 guitars have the same 2 o'clock f-hole? Why have
one f-hole for short scale and a different f-hole shape for long scale guitars? That's why I think they were leftover bodies. There is not a lot of
'leftover' 2 o'clock 1996's to be counted for. If you know of 10, that's about all I've seen over the years and that could be it. All the rest could be 1 o'clock. Tony, have you ever seen another solid-top '64 besides John Lennon's and the fire-glo sample that is in Japan?
I seem to recall reading that RM requested the 'f' shaped soundhole due to their opinion that it was more acceptable in their market. Perhaps someone can recall the specifics. I suspect that 1 or 2 o'clock wasn't an issue. It was perhaps just put the 'f' where the scimitar would normally be.
Hi Tony, nice to hear from you. And you jump in with such a provocative prospect. 3 possible configurations of 325/RM1996. And also new thoughts on the manufacturing period for Lennon's solidtop. I had supected that Lennon's 2 '64 solidtops were custom made at the time, seeing as solidtops just don't seem to be around (aside from those first few in '58) Very interesting indeed!
Hi Tony, nice to hear from you. And you jump in with such a provocative prospect. 3 possible configurations of 325/RM1996. And also new thoughts on the manufacturing period for Lennon's solidtop. I had supected that Lennon's 2 '64 solidtops were custom made at the time, seeing as solidtops just don't seem to be around (aside from those first few in '58) Very interesting indeed!