1963 VINTAGE 325 John Lennon Blues

sashua · Post by **sashua** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:04 am

Hi folks,

I'm coming to all of you with a question that needs some expert advice.

Recently, I bought a near-perfect, museum quality 325 from a dealer in the U.K. - or so I thought! Well, it arrived and it ain't museum quality...not by any stretch.

Here's the deal. I paid 10 Grand for the guitar. That would have been a sweet deal if it were a time-machine type of investment. As it stands, this guitar has several blemishes that are eyesores and many more that would normally be considered "basic player wear" for a 42 year old instrument... only not exactly for a guitar that was described as "near museum quality".

There are two holes drilled into the heel for straplocks that were poorly filled in and there is a 1" long wear spot through the finish on the back of the guitar that was filled in with magic marker or ink of some kind.

I have uploaded a bunch of pictures for you to see the blemishes under dispute.

I contacted the music store in the U.K. and they have agreed to give me a refund if that is what I want but freight back and forth is on my account (+/-$600). This would be a loss that I would be willing to grudgingly take, however, they have also offered to let me keep the guitar for $7790. This seems an arbitrary number but I assume it is their cost of ownership on the instrument.

So....after all this long windedness....what do you think? Is it an $8000 guitar or do I just return it and bite the bullet?

Here is what the guitar looks like without any close-up shots in the E-Bay auction where it was originally offered (some of you may remember it)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rickenbacker-325-Rose-Morris-Original-1964_W0QQitemZ160049570952QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2384QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and here are the images of the major blemishes in question:
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/iUD25149.jpg
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/zqN26468.jpg
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/lIv26503.jpg
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/hrb26608.jpg
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/ZEX26649.jpg
http://img21.imagefiasco.com/images/KxF26710.jpg

So the question is...Deal or No Deal?

Thanks,
Russ

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:15 am

Whether or not it's an $8,000 guitar may be moot here. The cost of shipping the guitar (I assume you've already paid for it to be shipped to you) is too high to spend that kind of money and have no guitar. While not perfect, finish problems are repairable. why not let Paul have a go at it? You may never find another '63.

simer4001 · Post by **simer4001** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:15 am

Sorry about that guitar Russ. I would agree with Kris. For the money you would be out I would get on Paul's schedule and have him get it back in shape.

I have heard mixed reviews about Music Ground. Personally, I bought a bass from them and it was exactly as described, but yours isn't the first story I have heard to the contrary.

Good Luck.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:45 pm

Great pictures, Russ; too bad the seller didn't take them and include them in the auction to show the problems with the guitar. Not what I would rate as a "9/10" condition.

I'll post a note under the "Appraisals" section to see if we can get Paul's (and JWilli's et al.) input on this. IMO, $8000 for a 1963 325 is probably not too bad.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:19 pm

I think someone should direct Music Ground's attention to this forum so we can all say "shame on you" to them in unison.

It's a wonderful guitar, but clearly not as stated in the ad.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:09 pm

Well, I have over a dozen posts on this in my mailbox, but there are only four remaining on the thread, so I assume Peter has moved them elsewhere?

I have some sweeping generalizations to lay out:

I don't trust Music Ground; ever since I started reading their Ebay listings, I've smelled someone who plays fast and loose with the "troof". Brings to mind the Brit motor trade of the late '50s and especially '60s, where it was really buyer beware and those who sold were in another world from the unlucky punters who were "in the market". MG has the same flavor about their way of promoting their "product".

I'd love to hear from anyone who has had a 100% fair and pleasurable experience in dealing with them. I think it only fair that they be entitled to their defenders, if any exist on this Forum.

I do not believe that a pro refinish (Dale, me, or another, unknown to me refinisher who follows factory procedures and uses like materials) will "halve the value". That's dealer/guitar show nonsense; I've railed and preached against this for awhile now. Rickenbackers are specialist instruments; they are NOT Fenders, Gibsons or Gretsches; they often trade between a limited number of individuals and each sale is a unique deal. Anyone who sells a Rick to a dealer, refinished or original, gets what they deserve--a right screwing in many cases. (I exclude Mike Parks and Chris Clayton, who are not your average out-for-blood vintage dealers.)

Russell, you are making a mistake (or misstatement) in lumping Dale and I in with the person who refinished Ira's guitar, by saying that his went for half-price because of the refin. It was because of a non-original, non-factory spec refinish, and because someone made use of that arbitrary rule in pricing or buying it.

The amounts I was sincerely offered for my '60 Capri at RIC75 and since, by several individuals, completely belie that rule of thumb, and I believe that this will happen with some frequency to instruments properly refinished and/or restored by Dale or myself.

Anyway, I am not pitching you, because I could not take it on for about eight months anyway at the earliest. But I do feel that these dealer-inspired rules of thumb hurt everyone (myself least of all, because my own customers seem to understand this point--and you are one of my customers...)

I do not intend to turn this into a discussion on the merits and monetary value of Rickenbacker restoration or the intrinsic value of original vs. restored guitars. We've had those discussions at least twice in this Forum in the last few months.

Re: the deal with MG, Russ. They violated a trust and lied by omission. I don't feel that the issue is merely one of dollars and cents (or "dollars and sense") but perhaps that's how you feel. The guitar does have a unique place by being (if verifiable) the earliest 325 known by The 325 Page. But that's pretty thin provenance; if another, older one comes up--which is entirely possible, you lose that advantage in a flash.

Do I think it was worth the price you paid? Nope. Do I think it's worth $8K? Nope again, but only by a smidge. And it depends too much on market conditions and comps (just like real estate, although not as formalized) whether your investment would appreciate enough to satisfy you.

I'd return it, take the loss for shipping, and shop more carefully in future.

Of the two guitars that I'm working on for you now, one may not ever increase in value (although to the right buyer you would do pretty well!), and one will do well from the minute it leaves my shop. You know, I think, which is which...

simer4001 · Post by **simer4001** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:55 pm

I purchased a Hofner Cavern from them many years ago and had no problem with the bass or the price. But like I said in my earlier post, I have seen many negative reviews from folks on this forum.

I don't know if ebay can help with getting the shipping returned, but you may want to try. I feel badly for you Russ and I will keep a good thought that it is resolved to your satisfaction.

sashua · Post by **sashua** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:07 pm

Paul,
I don't believe that the act of refinishing the guitar in and of itself would actually halve its value but I paid $10,000 for this instrument and Ira paid less than $4,800 with a refin. Perhaps a better refin would have yielded more but, like you say, most of these transactions are amongst enthusiasts such as ourselves and WE set the market value. So...one of us paid $10K as all-original and (supposedly) pristine and one of us paid half that for a refinished instrument. My comment was based on simple mathematics, nothing more.

I have run into equal numbers of collectors that come from both sides of the argument and I believe that vintage value comps are set by all-original examples of varying condition and provenance coming up weekly on (primarily) E-Bay or G-Base . Instruments such as the ones you produce and refinish are never figured into the equation. Open question here...when was the last time anyone here saw one of Paul or Dale's masterworks up for sale on the secondary market? Anybody? This is because they are works of art as individual as their owners (in most cases

)! Nobody wants to part with one of them and therefore setting a value is simply impossible because it is perceived value alone dictating the selling price.

My point was not that refinishing would hurt the value of the instrument so much as it was that the turnover of the refinished product could only yield (at best) what the commercial comps of the preserved vintage instruments have, which are mostly in the $8-$9K range. Would you make an investment of close to $9K only to turn it around and sell it for $9K? To me, in this case, it truly is just a matter of dollars and cents...nothing more. I have an emotional attachment to all of the guitars I buy but this one was just for fun and investment. I don't do 3/4 scale when I play out.

For what it's worth, I am liking the idea of buying beaters and having them refinished more and more these days! The end product is more gratifying and perceived value ain't so bad when the instrument in question comes from your shop!

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:24 pm

If you're looking at it as an investment, then you should return the guitar.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:24 pm

Russ, from what I see in the pictures, someone has done some very poor fix its on this guitar. Can't call them repairs, cause what's been done to the 325 has diminished the value. The major thing I see is the fingerboard separation and the finish wear on the treble side of the peg head/neck area. As a vintage piece, I wouldn't do a refin, but restore the bad spots as well as can be done. I'd say 6K tops if I had to put a monetary value on it, though this may be high.

8mileshigh · Post by **8mileshigh** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:11 am

My 2 cents...........I'd have to hold it and think - could I sell it on now for $10K or would I have to take a loss or will it be worth $11K in a year or so? If I wasn't comfortable with the answer - send it back.

8mileshigh · Post by **8mileshigh** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:23 am

Here are the pics.......

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:16 am

Buying from an individual is one thing, but I'm astonished at the horror stories I've heard lately about so-called vintage guitar shops passing of seriously hacked stuff as "mint," etc.

Perhaps it's time there was a category in this forum called "warning" to keep all who're interested abreast of the accusations against major offenders.

8mileshigh · Post by **8mileshigh** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:15 am

Good Idea Glenn. I was a victim of such an incident, with a vintage guitar store from Chicago

ira_marlowe · Post by **ira_marlowe** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:06 pm

How right you are Glenn!!!