Groups At The Iron Door

Discuss the early days of the Club with the manager.
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Post by admin »

Thanks again, Peter. Very rich in detail. Your comments are colourful and give as a glimpse into the early 1960s. We will all be looking forward to your next post.

I would like it very much if you would have a go at some of the topics discussed under the Liverpool Project topic.
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Post by 13_temple_street »

Humping & heaving was certainly rife among's some of the groups I agree Peter.
Once again your postings are like a breath of fresh air to me.
The fact that you can describe in such vivid detail your involvement with the Iron Door independently to confirm ,the massive build up of people and popularity of the club and the ability of the organisation to cope with such large crowds which left other clubs in Liverpool in the shade.
I have mentioned that we at the Iron Door had known members of the Big Three since 1958/9,when Brian Casser departed to London, in 1960 he created a problem for the remaining members of Cass & the Cassanovas,they were reluctant to bring other musicians in to join them (I know this because I think I must have sat in at most of their discussions in the early days)
The problem area was the sound,they wanted to be heard and did not want the public to look upon them as a "trio".It appeared to be unsustainable until Adrian came up with the idea of the "Coffin" amplifiers
Adrian's background was in electronics (I think it is safe to say Adrian was a wireless operator on merchant vessels) so I suppose it was natural to come up with the idea.
The problem the groups had was transporting them in the small vans.
The Big Three's van was a medium size ex furniture removals van.
The point Peter makes on his posting these "Coffin" amplifiers were not only big they were heavy.
The amplifiers had to be purchased in pairs,I bought seven pairs altogether I used to keep two downstairs for any group to plug into if they so wished.
QUOTES.

The Iron DOOR Club where big beat and hep teenagers go hand in hand - DAILY EXPRESS.

The Iron Door Club,a tidy collection of untidy cellars is probably the biggest and certainly one of the best known beat centres in the world -DAILY MIRROR.

An Iron Door Club crowd that made the Cavern look like the pierhead on a wet Sunday afternoon-DAILY POST.

EVERYONE claims me, but really I started singing at the Iron Door Club.-CILLA BLACK.

WHEREVER we go to play we always feel at home at the Iron Door Club-THE SEARCHERS.
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Post by hamilton_square »

A question for Geoff Hogarth?

It’s something that occurred to me shortly after reading what you said recently in another part of this forum.

Back then, of all the groups and individuals who passed through your door of iron. Who eventually failed to live up to your early expectations of promise and gave you the greatest disappointment when things didn’t work out like you first thought they might have half-a-chance of doing.
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Post by 13_temple_street »

Yes Peter there was such a person it was a man called Geoff Hogarth.He passed through the Door of Iron everyday.
Trawling through the advertisements placed in the Liverpool Echo for the dates of events at the Iron Door in the 60s,I find a date I am looking for,I then look to see what was on at the Cavern for that particular night,more often than not the show at the Cavern in my opinion, would have been a more prestigious affair.The Cavern in the early days promoted some terrific shows.
The philosophy at the Iron Door was to draw on the talents of the bands from Merseyside.There were exception's, but in the main it was always at the back of my mind to give anyone with talent a chance.If I had a choice of promoting the Beatles, or a decent untried beat band the tick would have to go to the beat band.
In hind-sight I would have organised things differently and promoted bigger named bands on the scene at the time.
Cut throat thinking was rife,It was unacceptable I would not indulge.
For instance it is alleged that on the all-night session held at the Iron Door(aka LJS) organised by Sam Leach, two thousand people watched the event,apparently the Cavern had fifty people in that night,this must have worried them to such an extent, that they gave the Beatles an ultimatum effectively barring them from playing at the Iron Door in return they agreed to pay them more and guaranteed them frequent regular bookings every week.The outcome resulted in the three hundred appearances at this one venue.
This was unacceptable to me,again in hindsight I should have made representation to try and resolve the issue.Between the Iron Door & Sam Leach we were probably giving the groups more work, than all the other venues put together.Certainly more people attended our shows,simply because it was a much bigger venue.
In conversation with Alan Sytner the original owner of the Cavern, who I respected as a visionary and a man who told it as it was,he scoffed at the suggestion that the Cavern could cope with more than four to five hundred people,he maintained the sanitary system would not function with so many people.It is on record that raw sewage would on occasions seep onto the dance floor.
"Who eventually failed to live up to your early expectations of promise and gave you the greatest disappointment"

All my partners in the Iron Door venture,there are boundaries I cannot cross at the moment,one day the true Iron Door Story will emerge.
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Post by lyle_from_minneapolis »

What a difference a river makes!
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Post by hamilton_square »

Geoff – Although, not exactly the sort of answer I was seeking to solicit when formulating my question, nevertheless, many thanks for such a frank reply.

From my vantage point of an interested onlooker, who by accident of birth just happened to be more historically closer to the actual events than others may have been. I was obviously aware of the competition issues that existed between the IDC and the ‘other’ club at the time.

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For the possible benefit of non-Liverpool readers, to fully try and understand the issues between the two venues that Geoff Hogarth is referring to. One needs to bear in mind the scale of Liverpool City Centre and the mere minutes walking distance between the streets of Temple and Mathew. Add to this a population transportation network where cars played a much lesser role than they do today. Being that audiences for this type of entertainment were required to make their way from (and back to) outlying districts by a combination of local bus services and shank’s pony [walking]. Therefore, varying forms of deliberate attendance effort were being asked of paying customers both prior to and after an evening’s entertainment. Further factor in the meagre levels, by today’s standards, of income that the general target audience had at their then disposable and the resulting answer is that both the IDC and the Cavern, so to speak, were trying to eat the same ‘butty’ [sandwich].

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While, back then, I was more naturedly drawn towards the IDC, principally for atmospheric reasons and also, the ‘catering’ was better than the ‘other’ place.* That’s not say I didn’t partake of the odd (then technically illegal) swift half-or-two in The Grapes before descending into the ‘other’ place. However, it had to be a ‘named’ attraction to get me down those stairs. Also, I never had any remembered luck copin’ off with any skirts in their either.**

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* Re the ‘other’ place - I don’t know if it was just my bad timing but every time I fancied something to eat, all they seem to have left was cheese ‘butties’ [sandwiches]. So, now whenever I hear mention of the ‘other’ place, for some reason I start thinking of cheese.
** To cop off – to find a suitable companion, usually of the opposite sex. A Skirt – refers to someone of the female persuasion.


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Just as a matter of passing interest, the last time I can remember being at the ‘other’ place was late 1971 (or it could have been early 1972) to see a group by the name Vinegar Joe. It wasn’t really Vinegar Joe I went along to see – it was the girl that was singing with them at the time that rang a few bells with me. Geoff, do you remember Manchester’s Elkie Brooks [born: Elaine Bookbinder] and if memory serves me correct, one of the Brian Epstein stable of casualties. Can you recall [Geoff] if she ever performed during your time at the IDC? During 1964 was the first time she came to my attention when she released a cover version of “Something’s Got A Hold On Me” but had long since dropped off my musical radar.

After the gig, I remember having a brief Mathew Street conversation with her. Geoff, to be honest, my type woman, forceful personality, not averse to occasional Anglo-Saxon usage of the English language, dark attractive looks that have aged well and still working past pensionable age.

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Although off-topic subject matter for this forum’s board, if anyone wants to see and hear a similar excerpt of what I saw and heard that night, click on the inserted YouTube link below - and yes, that is a very youthful looking Robert Palmer singing with Elkie Brooks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHULH8mXb_Q

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Again, [Geoff] many thanks for all your first-hand-behind-the-scenes historical insights. Although only vaguely aware of the behind closed iron door business matters that you experienced, I understand that there was a strong acrimonious element in it all. Therefore, given the circumstances and the possible resulting consequences, I fully appreciate your reasons for not wanting to go into such matters in greater public detail.

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”What a difference a river makes!”

Mark – You better believe it! For without one, Liverpool and possibly Minneapolis together with a good few other cities probably wouldn’t have come into being.
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Post by 13_temple_street »

It was mischievous of me I know Peter,as I was writing the posting a voice in my head was saying I wonder what Peter will make of this.
Your question gave me an opportunity to get a few things of my chest.
I cannot recall Elkie Brooks performing at the "Door".I think I have most of her recordings.
She would be among's my top ten woman singers.
Back to your original question Peter without any doubt I choose Beryl Marsden.
As always Peter I enjoyed reading your article, I look forward to your postings.
By the way I did not have the pleasure or otherwise of visiting the Cavern,I used to meet Alan Sytner at a dentist friend of mine,his practice was next door to Dr Sytners (Alans dad)surgery in Scotland Road,Liverpool.In fact it was Dr Sytner who introduced me to Alan .
It would be interesting to know who you nominate as your preferred woman singer.
Without any shadow of doubt,another surprise I have to choose DIANA WASHINGTON.
I can hear you saying Peter, Geoff must have had a very sheltered life.
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Post by lyle_from_minneapolis »

Nothing but support from me on that choice. She was HOT, and a world class vocalist.
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Post by hamilton_square »

”By the way I did not have the pleasure or otherwise of visiting the Cavern.”

Geoff – Considering the proximity and common interests of both venues – that does indeed surprise me. However, given the business circumstances of the times, you must have had your own reasons for keeping your distance.

”Without any shadow of doubt, another surprise I have to choose DIANA WASHINGTON. I can hear you saying Peter, Geoff must have had a very sheltered life.”

‘Sheltered life’ – I somehow don’t think so – Surprised, why should I be, the pure quality of her delivery still stands up to close inspection in this day and technological age.

Re Beryl Marsden – born Beryl Hogg but for understandable reasons, adopted Marsden as a stage name.

You’re not the first person I’ve heard express regrets that she failed to follow through once tempted away from Liverpool. Although, on record as saying that she just played the hand that life dealt her. It would only be natural, if Beryl Marsden had the occasional Yosser Hughes moment. ‘I can do that!’ – sorry to tell you luv’ but Lulu’s got the job.

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Yosser Hughes – central fictional Liverpool character from the influential British TV bleak comedy-drama “Boys From The Black Stuff”. Forever desperately looking for any kind of work, his oft-uttered lament was, “I can do that! Go on! Gissa’ a job!”.

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Re Elkie Brooks – if as you say, she never appeared at the IDC, there is nevertheless a connection, albeit slender, between her and the club – that of Trevor Morais -drummer with IDC regulars Faron’s Flamingos.

After Faron’s Flamingos disbanded, I remember a week’s R & R, courtesy of Fred Pontin at Morecambe and seeing Trevor Morais playing (on camp) in a trio by the name of The Peddlers. Another highlight of the week, as I recall, was charming young Scots lady from Edinburgh I encountered while watching Trevor Morais & Co do their stuff. So much so, we remained closer and physically ever closer companions for the remainder of the week – the memory of Annette MacMillan, also affectionately known as Annie Mac, remains with me to this day.

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At that time in Britain, Billy Butlin and his closest competitor Fred Pontin had both built up huge summer holiday camp empires. Where, for a one-off payment, families and groups of unattached people could go and collectively partake of the activities on offer. Nowadays, with the availability of cheap European air travel, one is more likely to find such families and unattached groups scattered across the warmer Mediterranean countries of Southern Europe doing basically the same type of thing.

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The next time Trevor Morais makes an appearance is 1978. By now, Elkie Brooks is on something of a roll following the success of ‘Pearl’s A Singer’. BBC2 record and broadcast an hour-long live onstage concert of her performing and there behind the drum-kit sits Trevor Morais.

Another little Elkie Brooks moment that’s lodged in my memory is, round about the same time, she’s down to do a slot singing on the BBC’s Michael Parkinson Saturday Night Chat Show. The main and closing guest on the show that evening was the legendary American film actor, James Stewart. Elkie duly performs her spot and when she’s finished Michael Parkinson brings on James Stewart. As he’s getting comfortable in the chair before beginning the interview, James Stewart leans over to Michael Parkinson and says in that famous slow drawn out way of speaking, something along the lines of, “I really wouldn’t have minded standing back-stage a little bit longer if by chance you were goin’ to let her sing another song.” Then turning towards the off-camera direction of Elkie Brooks, he says, “Thank you, I enjoyed that.”

While by no means a comprehensive collection, I particularly like Elkie Brooks multiple [1993] recording titled ‘Round Midnight’. To me, it comes across as if she and a close bunch of fellow musicians have been holed-up overnight in some small smoky recording studio and are just leisurely whiling away the time performing old bluesy jazz standards for their own apparent intimate amusement and pleasure.

”It would be interesting to know who you nominate as your preferred woman singer.”

Geoff – to be truthful, I’m not into compiling top ten style lists of anything. Requires far too many subjective opinions on my part to be beneficially worth the mental exercise. But up there would be and in no particular order of preference:

Dusty Springfield – complete with all the personal hang-ups she had. Her somewhat limited octave range governed the short of material she could comfortably handle but, in many respects, the distinctive and original sound of her delivery was unquestionably unique.
Karen Carpenter – yet another lady with personal problems that eventually did for her. Blessed with perfect pitch and a voice of crystal clear clarity.
Judy Garland – oh! Why am I drawn towards such troubled women? Her singing voice and body language were all about suppressed emotions. I suppose that’s very much why she’s been so readily adopted as an icon by the gay community. Unfortunately, towards the end of her life such emotions became too visible and overpowered her performances.

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Question for Peter McCormark (Admin)

Merely out of technical curiosity, upon re-reading my previous post I noticed a couple of overlooked typing errors. Any particular reason why, when I attempted to correct them via the ‘edit post’ function I got the instruction that editing privileges lapse after 180 minutes of posting – or is just a software thing?
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Post by admin »

Peter (Hamilton Square) I have bumped up the window for edits, appreciating that should it become too great then changes may make comments based on the original post irrelevant and confusing. It is a fair question though, so let's give the new limits a trial run to see what others think.

"Boys From The Black Stuff" is a "must see" film and one that speaks to the life and times of those facing unemployment and hard times in Liverpool. It is most revealing with regard to the hardships of the times and the emotional fallout that can result. It also demonstates, to me at least, why so many in similar situations in Liverpool found humour in the darkest of times ... because they had to.

With regard to the River Mersey, its importance as you comment, seems to have been considerable. I have always been taken by the song "Ferry Cross The Mersey" and after singing it only a couple of times quickly appreciated the heart-felt sentiments of its composer. While perhaps an overstatement, for me it became an anthem for Liverpool and the importance of the river in the lives of those who lived by it and crossed it everyday. I have always wondered how the tunnel changed peoples' relationship with the river if at all.
I believe it was hard times, a busy port and the relative isolation of the north that allow Liverpool musicians to make well-known songs their own, while at the same time creating their own compositions that reflected their unique living circumstances.
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Post by larrywassgren »

Ferry Cross The Mersey is one great song. There's something special about that one for sure. You can still take the ferry from Birkenhead to Liverpool and get a good feeling. I've walked through Hamilton Square and it's beautiful. I stayed in Birkenhead last November and that's where I'll stay from now on. It hasn't changed as much as Liverpool City Center. It's still affordable and there's a bunch of great sausage and chips places where a working man can get a great meal for little money. Now I need to start saving/selling for another trip! Back to our regular scheduled program.....
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Post by hamilton_square »

The Searchers at the Iron Door Club

Having got round to reading the online interchange (reproduced below) between Clem Dalton and Geoff Hogarth that took place on this board at the beginning of October last year. For somebody, who was only viewing actual events from spectator distance. A fair few light bulbs were, so to speak, switched back on again for me.

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Clem Dalton - 06 October 2006
[Quote] I always found the Searchers to be a rather troubled group. They were immensely talented, but always gave me the impression that they weren't satisfied with the recognition they received and let's face it, Les Ackerley wasn't exactly Brian Epstein, although they did have their chance with Eppy but that would go under the title of "Brian & the man from the Inland Revenue". There also seemed to the outsider, that there was a lot of inter-group bickering, I just got the feeling that they were not a happy group at that time but wow! When they were on stage few could better them. [Unquote]

Geoff Hogarth - 07 October 2006
[Quote] The lack of recognition given to the Searchers has been one of Liverpool's tragedies, of course, there were problems within the group which made them harder to deal with than the Beatles or Gerry and the Pacemakers, but their sound was terrific and influenced the whole West Coast Sound. Chris Curtis was a big influence on the group, he was keen on the folk rock sound, captured brilliantly in What Have They Done to the Rain. Had they continued along that route they may well have extended their chart career by a couple of years at least. It would also have included them in the big American festival scene. [Unquote]

Clem Dalton - 08 October 2006
[Quote] As I remember, Chris was the definite focal point on stage. The others were a bit static. Chris was the showman but, if memory serves, Tony Jackson had a great stage presence & for some reason seemed rather imposing, possibly because of his build. I seem to remember him as physically larger than the others. Musically I found them to be the most polished of all the UK groups and they deserved far greater success & longevity than they achieved. Even more so in the USA. [Unquote]

Geoff Hogarth - 08 October 2006
[Quote] Clem I agree Chris Curtis was a great showman, stuck at the back behind his drums he managed to make his presence felt. I think your analysis is spot on Tony Jackson & Mickey Pender were the one's with the control of the microphone which tended to give them a bigger stage presence. John McNally was always the quiet one he said very little on or of stage, a brilliant musician ends up with the Searchers name. [Unquote]

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Re references to conflict and troubles within the group. This would explain why, when off-stage, a couple of the members could often appear ‘moody’ and somewhat unapproachable in their general demeanour. Built like a light-heavyweight boxer, Tony Jackson, in particular, could display that intimidating ‘stay-clear-of-me’ air about him. I also seem to recall that Chris Curtis, one minute, could be laughing and joking and the next minute look like he was at funeral.

As Clem Dalton remembers, “Chris was the definite focal point on stage. The others were a bit static.” Albeit with certain misgivings, I would most certainly go along with that statement. Being that, from an audience close up perspective, there were instances when the contrast between physical styles began to take on a somewhat distorted appearance during IDC performances. On occasions, Chris Curtis’s naturally flamboyant actions could become too over animated and exaggerated, thereby dwarfing the statue-like stage persona of the other three. Quite honestly, there were times, in my opinion, when Chris Curtis’s stage antics could appear to be having a disruptive and unsettling influence on the general performance cohesion of a particular number. Sometimes, he could keep things together enough to bring it off but, there where other times when he lost it by, in a manner of speaking, going too over the top. Vocal-wise, Chris Curtis was also the ‘belta’ of the group when numbers required the use of excessive amounts of lungpower. While his singing voice didn’t have that natural raw-edge to it, he could just about bring it off.

Geoff Hogath claims that, “……their sound was terrific and influenced the whole West Coast Sound.” Other than to also throw The Beatles into this early folk-rock mix, there’s really not a lot else one can say about such a claim, except to write sore thumb and sticks out in the same sentence.

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Compare The Byrds 1965 recording of “I’ll Feel A Whole Better”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxjEP_yWPjA

With The Searchers “Needles And Pins” released a year earlier in 1964.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPYzXQpUso8

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Clem Dalton goes onto to say, “Musically I found them to be the most polished of all the UK groups……” Even back then, with just a single adjective, one could describe The Searchers, STYLISH. Not for them the every mother’s nightmare, rough and ready approach - they had put together their own thought-out game plan.

Geoff Hogarth concludes by saying, “John McNally was always the quiet one he said very little on or of stage, a brilliant musician……” Indeed, when in public, apparently a man of few words. Strip everything out but the heart and what one is left with is the baby-faced John McNally. There were times when Curtis was getting up to his tricks and Pender and Jackson were laying down the vocals one almost forgot about him. How can one seem to do so little but being doing so much. Whereas, at that time, other local Liverpool guitarists would have run the proverbial mile to get out of mastering a 12 stringer. His already undoubted prowess as a talented player meant that he happily ran towards the additional complexities of the instrument just as fast as others would have run in the opposite direction.

”The lack of recognition given to the Searchers has been one of Liverpool's tragedies……”

Amen Geoff – It’s just gonna’ have to do that we know, RIP and search no more.
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Post by sowhat »

Speaking of McNally's input (yes, i know, it's an "old song" from me, but still...) - i had a feeling the managers or whoever controlled the group at the time underestimated his potential as performer, so to speak. There was a nice vid of "Hi-heel sneakers" on youtube... long story short, the combination of a "baby face" and a tes... um, wicked voice was indeed funny and could've made their performance more tes... um, diverse and attractive to audience in a way. I've heard a few people say he couldn't really sing, but (of coooourse...) i'd rather disagree with that. He could hit the notes (at least most of) & sing loud enough to be heard (and do some more, imho - consider "Think of my life", for instance), and the contrast between the appearance & the voice could've worked. Now i'm not a manager of course (far from that), and perhaps his singing style & delivery were considered to be "clashing" with overall band's style and image - just a suggestion...
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Post by hamilton_square »

Sheena (Sowhat) - I presume you were making (YouTube) reference to this somewhat undemonstrative John McNally vocal interpretation of “High Heeled Sneakers”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyhJTjDpXfs

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Geoff Hogarth – seeing as you made specific mention to this particular Searchers number during your Clem Dalton dialogue - here’s one for you. Only recently posted on YouTube a few days ago [02 February 2007 to be precise] “What Have They Done To The Rain”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wenNB3UlEO0
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Post by 13_temple_street »

Peter,("Hamilton")I have to give you credit for having the for sight to give the October observation's of the Searchers, between Clem(Bilco)and myself another opportunity to be discussed,I think as we have come to expect from you Peter, your analysis is first class and to the point.
The views expressed by Clem & me on the individual members of the Searchers were based on the groups activities mainly at the Iron Door Club in the 60s.
The purpose was to try and establish that there was a serious clash of personality's which eventually lead to the group splitting up.
I feel privlige'd as I guess you are Peter, to have been around at the time, to divulge these experiences,to others less fortunate.
I made the point of saying in the October postings that I thought Chris Curtis was a showman,I agree on occasions, he did tend to be disruptive.This trait followed him in later life where it is on record that he acted in a strange manner,alledgedly he gave his rare collection of records away to some pensioners waiting for a bus.
It was a surprise to see on U-Tube the Searchers version of "What have they done to the rain".
It was a pleasure to view.Thank you.
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