Groups At The Iron Door

[lyle_from_minneapolis]

One question related to Gary's about how different the Beatles were to other groups---

Davies says that Cliff Richard and the Shadows had a huge impact on groups at the time, with everyone dressing in grey and rehearsing choreographed moves, whereas the Beatles came back from Hamburg scruffier and wilder than ever in their black leather and cowboy boots--sort of the Anti-Shadows. What do you think, Geoff?

[13_temple_street]

Lyle,how are you nice that you have joined the discussion,I have of course heard of Hunter Davies I never met the man, or read anything that he has written,as far as I am aware he didn't venture into the Iron Door,so it deosen't surprise me he didn't give it a mention.
The only group that emulated the Shadows were the Remo Four,they were very popular and always immaculate onstage they were all terrific musicians and I seem to remember the lads doing a dance routine.
I can only answer your question Lyle, by saying it did not happen at the Iron Door.
If I may transgress to something I wrote on Johnny Hutchinson turning the Beatles down.
This is from a broadcast on BBC.Radio Merseyside Spencer Leigh is interviewing Johnny Hutchinson
"Brian asked me to join the Beatles and I said,I would not join the Beatles for a gold clock.There's only one group as far as I am concerned and that's the Big Three.
The Beatles can't make a better sound than that,and Pete Best is a very good friend of mine,I couldn't do the dirty on him".
.

[admin]

As a matter of general interest you can hear the Remo Four playing Trambone on the Iron Door Site. The date of this recording was 1961. Listening to this clip is almost as good as being in a time machine.

[cavernplayer]

As for Pete Best leaving, I believe the Beatles had a chance for a recording contract and were told Pete's drumming was not up to snuff. Scared they might blow this "second" chance, they dumped Pete and brought in Ringo who they thought was the best drummer in Liverpool. Now they would not jepordize their chance for a recording deal with a proper drummer. Mr. Martin thought otherwise and used a session drummer Andy White. As for me, I really cannot hear much of a difference between Pete and Ringo. Pete sounded fine at the Decca recordings. Just my opinion.
Steve

[lyle_from_minneapolis]

You're right, Steve. Although I have heard it said that they ended up using Ringo's takes anyway, I'm not sure. Andy White later drummed for Plastic Ono Band in Toronto, and also with Yes.

Geoff, who was your favorite band at the time, circa 1961 or 62? Was it the Beatles or were you a Searchers or Big Three guy?

[13_temple_street]

Lyle,All the bands were different,this choice may surprise you and remember I had band sounds practically running out of my ears two bands come to mind Kingsize Taylor & The Dominoes and the Escorts.
Of course The Big Three & The Searchers are right up there at the top as well.
During my time at the Iron Door I made a decision not to favour one group against another.
I tried to treat all the groups the same,and I admit that on occasions I would hide behind the managers back.

[admin]

You can read a bit about the Escorts here on the Iron Door Club site.

[lyle_from_minneapolis]

Thanks Geoff. I'm always fascinated by the tenuous pathways to superstardom---the Beatles could easily have failed to score a contract in these early days, and just imagine how different our world history would be...quite an impact they had.

[j_gary]

I find it very interesting that Geoff found that the Beatles blended in with many of the groups appearing on stage at the time. I had been laboring under the impression that the Beatles were dramatically different in their sound and presentation.

Geoff, did the people at the Door react different to the Beatles? Perhaps the female clientele were more enthusiastic? I wonder if the primary push for the group may have had more to do with their cuteness rather than their sound.

Geoff, I love the Epstein story. You were probably one of the last people on earth to throw him out of anything. Were the groups reluctant to deal with him? Was he a regular at the club? Your impression of the man?

[13_temple_street]

Lyle ,I agree it was touch and go for them,without Brian Epstein I doubt if the Beatles and all the other groups in his stable would have made it.He was in a better position than most to succeed.
The Beatles overwhelming ability to compose music and write were there strength above all the other groups,this is why they became so successful.
There were groups who in my opinion had a better sound than the Beatles,but they didn't or could not write their own stuff.

[13_temple_street]

Yes Gary, the Beatles did have a huge female following,especially Pete Best.
So popular was he that at one stage of their career people used to refer to the Beatles as Pete Best and the Beatles.
I also think you are right in thinking that they were different and they did have a different sound.
There were certain groups they dreaded to follow on the stage,one of the groups that come to mind was the Kansas City Five.
I think their writing and composing ability gave them the edge over the other groups,this in my opinion made them stand out head & shoulders, above the others. I think this gave them that primary push.
The episode with Brian Epstein wasn't that dramatic, I just said I think you had better leave now Brian.
No he probable visited the Iron Door on half a dozen occasion's.He was always immaculate in his dress, I had the impression he was used to getting his own way.
In general I would say most of the groups relished the thought of dealing with him.
Johnny Hutchinson was always is own man I wasn't surprised he spurned Brian's offer.
One man who had dealings with Brian Epstien on a business level who had connections with the Iron Door was Jessie James my ex manager.
Jess left the club to work at the Tower New Brighton as the manager,he was responsible for booking all of Epstein's groups including I believe the Beatles.If he reads this he might get the urge to write about his experiences at the Tower.

[j_gary]

It appears the Beatles were Epstein's favorite, did you get that impression?

I think you are spot on about the groups writing being their secret weapon. I was wondering how they were chosen amongst all these good bands when their composing skills were not quite as prevalent.

Geoff, I would like to say it is a wonderful opportunity and a great pleasure to be able to listen to your experiences of a rather historic time frame. It is very kind of you to entertain our questions as I am sure some must have had you scratching your head.

The whole "British Invasion" had a major impact on the world, and I must say, me. As I spent much of my youth grinding away in the local bar circuit and dance halls, I often wondered what it would have been like to have been involved in the early 60's music scene in England. It seems to have been a magical time and your observations are fascinating. Thank you sir.

If I may ask about the type of equipment the groups were using? If you have read much on this forum, one quickly realizes we are a fastidious bunch about our musical gear. When I was young and playing most nights, I barely gave the gear a second look. Now I painfully go over every facet of a bass prior to a purchase. Did you detect any serious thought amongst these young musicians as to the type of equipment they were using?

[13_temple_street]

Hi Gary, I have read the Rickresource Forum,I am absolutely amazed at the information and knowledge
that transpires on the postings.
As far as musical instruments are concerned, to use your expression Gary, I am a "lurker". But I think I know a man who does,I will ask him and get back to you.
I have enjoyed the discussion's with Lyle,Steve & yourself,I think you "all" would have fitted in very well in the Iron Door in the 60s.There was a great pioneering spirit abroad you never knew what excitement lay round the corner.
Any way Gary, I have also learned a great deal from the discussion's we have had,so it's been a two way thing really.It's like belonging to a musical family with Uncle Peter popping in from time to time to keep us all in order.

[lyle_from_minneapolis]

Yes, Peter is sort of like Graham Chapman from Monty Python who would come bursting in with his military uniform on and say, "Right, what's all this then?"



And for that we are all grateful.

[13_temple_street]

Hi Lyle, If you had managed to be around the Iron Door in early 1961,perhaps you could have named yourselves THE BIG THREE.Just pipping them to the name.
Have you any preference as to what you would have called your band for your first audition at the Iron Door in the 60s.