Collected instruments

[jps]

I find it very interesting that in the past few years the majority of instruments in the Register are collected instruments (CI). It would be useful, I think, to have a note linked to the CI indicating the author of the CI, perhaps the initials of their real name or their user name that shows up when logged in.

[cjj]

What useful information would having the names of those who entered the CI get you?

[admin]

The information is otained from the public domain. I have the same question as CJ in that I Do not see value in having the name of the person who took the time to report the information.

[jps]

I feel that CI should be added only after obtaining permission from the owners of these instruments. Adding to the database that the register is does provide a great resource but doing so without considering the rights of the owners of these instruments is invasive, similar to bots that might harvest e-mail addresses from places such as the RRF, for example.

[electrofaro]

Jeff, if the register entry only contains the guitar data (model, colour, serial number etc) then it;s allowed under law as there's no personal identifiable information in this data. Pictures of the item would be quite different and can actually only be used if the pictures are in the public domain or if the owner has agreed to have them included. I rather would like to see a source link for all those non-ebay or HA entries - that way people can view any pictures on the original site!

[admin]

There is less information on the Register with regard to any instrument then there is on eBay. I would also argue that it is not the information per se but rather how others use it that may become problematic.

The disussion in the forums which has led to the pairing of an owner with an instrument or passing the information on to third parties has been far more of a problem for the RRF historically than the limited data on the Register.

Once one chooses to go forward and make things public on line, regardless of the subject matter, I think it is fair to say that others who have an interest in this information are going to discuss it and pass it on.

[gibsonlp]

Peter and I can see a detailed changelog so we know exactly who added / changed any value for any instrument and when. I don't see why should it become public. If there is any problem we can reach the person who added it or changed it.

As for instruments outside eBay - you are right, and we try to make sure that every instrument outside eBay has a link to the source in the comments section and unless I am not mistaken - comments are visible to anyone for collected instruments.

I am not so sure I understand you Jeff. Can you please explain why are you so upset about this feature? (feel free to send me a PM/mail if you don't want to do it openly).

[LenMinNJ]

Postings on eBay eventually expire and are no longer available to the public. Register entries are forever.

The "forever" has both positive and negative features.

Does the Register allow owners to delete their instruments?

[jps]

I am not so sure I understand you Jeff. Can you please explain why are you so upset about this feature? (feel free to send me a PM/mail if you don't want to do it openly).

I feel that collecting instruments from places like ebay and gbase links is taking information without consent from private owners, they not knowing that details and photos of their instruments that they still own (not sold yet, for example) are being collected and placed in a register they may not have ever heard about, for statistical use by others they may not know. Kind of like e-mail harvesting robots that crawl through website and forums that collect e-mail addresses for whatever purpose is deemed necessary, only in this case it's people deliberately canvassing sales sites to grab this information. I also see folks on the RRF almost drooling for serial numbers and photos and sometimes they are asking for these thing in a way that seems a bit devilish or deceitful in their quest for this information.

Imagine a person who had just purchased a brand new instrument from a store and then learned out about the RRF; he goes to the site and sees this register so he looks at it and find his instrument there already. Hmm, surprise! He is the first owner of a brand new instrument and it is already in some private register???? Because someone happened to be at that same store and took pictures, and a description of the instrument along with it's serial number and added it to the register. I knew a guy who spent his days walking through every Jewish cemetery he could find collecting names and dates of all the dead Jews to add to his database. Morbid, no?

[gibsonlp]

Postings on eBay eventually expire and are no longer available to the public. Register entries are forever.

The "forever" has both positive and negative features.

Does the Register allow owners to delete their instruments?

Yes, They can contact us.
Although I admit that personally I am against any omission/deletion. the fact that an instrument exist is public once it becomes public, I am against adding any instrument if the seller confided the serial number with someone who made it public without the seller's consent, but if the serial number is written in the ad or there is a picture of the serial number - the essence of the instrument existence is now a public domain and the owner can no longer (in my eyes) have any claim for that.
It's like asking me to forget that J55058 is a 370/12 WB VP in fireglo. It is public and I can always re-add it because I know it (assume for the sake of the argument that I have a perfect memory).
Please notice that we are not writing any personal detail about the owners, only country, state and city. the latter available only for the admins and the owner of the instrument.

Another thing (mainly concerning Jeff's comments) - MANY instruments are now CI but they used to be regular instruments before and were entered by their owners, once we see an instrument which is being owned by "Jack from Indiana" sold by "Dave from London" we know it changed hands and mark it as a CI, if you look at the first register page there are plenty of CI instrument but they were added long before the new system was in place.
If the instrument belongs to an active member we first make sure he sold it just in case.

And remember - even without the register: What happens on the web, stays on the web. Usually forever.

I feel that collecting instruments from places like ebay and gbase links is taking information without consent from private owners, they not knowing that details and photos of their instruments that they still own (not sold yet, for example) are being collected and placed in a register they may not have ever heard about, for statistical use by others they may not know. Kind of like e-mail harvesting robots that crawl through website and forums that collect e-mail addresses for whatever purpose is deemed necessary, only in this case it's people deliberately canvassing sales sites to grab this information. I also see folks on the RRF almost drooling for serial numbers and photos and sometimes they are asking for these thing in a way that seems a bit devilish or deceitful in their quest for this information.

Jeff, this is public info, all they need to do so we won't add the instrument is to avoid publishing the serial number, once they publish it we know about it. Very simple.

Imagine a person who had just purchased a brand new instrument from a store and then learned out about the RRF; he goes to the site and sees this register so he looks at it and find his instrument there already. Hmm, surprise! He is the first owner of a brand new instrument and it is already in some private register!!! Because someone happened to be at that same store and took pictures, and a description of the instrument along with it's serial number and added it to the register. I knew a guy who spent his days walking through every Jewish cemetery he could find collecting names and dates of all the dead Jews to add to his database. Morbid, no?

A whole different story. Please read my first post regarding CI instruments (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=378659) :

A wrong "collected item" would be going to your friend's house, peeking at his serial and publishing it as a "collected item". This is wrong as this information is NOT publicly available.
Additionally - asking a seller on ebay for the serial number for an item that does not include the serial number on the description and then publishing it is NOT okay (The seller confided you with the serial and did not make it publicly available).
Such entries will be removed.

A good "collected item" would be one that is publicly available for everyone to see, for example - ebay items, online articles, gbase items, etc... The idea is that if there is a Rickenbacker out there with all the relevant details (type, serial number, finish, etc...) there is no harm in having it added to the register as long as it is marked as "collected item". This way - no privacy is being violated as this information is public and we do make the information on the register more accurate.

[cjj]

Postings on eBay eventually expire and are no longer available to the public. Register entries are forever.

Ebay may remove them, but NOTHING every really disappears from the internet, and the info can be found in publicly accessible places...

[jps]

A good "collected item" would be one that is publicly available for everyone to see, for example - ebay items, online articles, gbase items, etc... The idea is that if there is a Rickenbacker out there with all the relevant details (type, serial number, finish, etc...) there is no harm in having it added to the register as long as it is marked as "collected item". This way - no privacy is being violated as this information is public and we do make the information on the register more accurate.

Is the effort made to contact the seller/owner of said instrument to inform/ask permission to collect the information to add said instrument to the register? I guess to me it is a bit of an ethical issue, here. Can I go out and start a register of Prius automobiles, for example, by canvassing parking lots and jotting down VIN numbers and license plates with descriptions and photos of these cars in public parking lots to add to my database without the consent of the owners of these vehicles? I am really just interested in the moral and ethical obligations of doing such.

[electrofaro]

Jeff, there are actually people who do take pictures of every VW Beatle they encounter... plus there's these aviation nuts taking shots of airplanes, noting the registration etc. We're doing nothing different. Actually I have changed my opinion on owners demanding an item to be taken down - as long as there's no personal identifiable info there's no reason to take it down. If there are copyrighted images, e.g. eBay auction, then things might be different for the pictures, but not for the entry in total - there's nothing illegal in noting serial this or that is model this or that. Location might be something else, and collected items might be wise just to provide a state, no deeper details.

[jps]

Thanks, Werner, that does make sense with regard to minimum invasion of one's more private information. Perhaps I am just looking at things more protectively to the individual than is required here.

[sloop_john_b]

FWIW, I have always felt the exact same way as Jeff on this one. I wouldn't be happy if one of my instruments wound up registered. Just a privacy thing.