Which Stratocaster For "That Sound"?

[doctorno]

Hi, I have read through the other threads about the Shadows´ sound of the early years (1959-1963) and the Burns period (1964-1970). I have learned a lot by reading this and I am delighted to find out that I am not alone with my search for "that sound."

Now, if I would like to get as close as possible to the recorded sound of The Shadows between 1959 and 1963 live, what equipment would I need?

I am interested especially to learn which guitar I should use. Right now I am exclusively playing Rickenbacker guitars but I have got a Fender Highway One at the school, where I work as a music teacher. Would it be possible to get close to "that sound" with the Highway 1 or do you need a special Strat model? Which pickups are best suited and which strings? Do you have to use a set of 12-52s or will a standard set of strings also do?

I have got a BOSS DD-20 delay which is able to emulate a tape echo quite well and an AC30. But when I use these and the Strat it does not sound like Hank at all.

[admin]

Markus: You will receive a number of different sorts of answers to these questions, but full marks for asking them.

Most of us are limited by the amount of gear that we can afford, or find for that matters in today's marketplace. At the end of the day, it is often about doing the best you can with what you have.

In my view you have all the essential gear to be able to get reasonably close to the early "sound", saving a couple. Single coil pickups are a big part of this. Some humbucking units can also be split in a convincing matter. While higher gauge strings are preferable, they are not a must but I would certainly stay away from the very light gauges as these just do not have the sustain that you need. I prefer pure nickel wounds but nickel plated will do fine. Some insist on using flat wounds, however, I am not in agreement with that preference.

I find that there is a need for reverb and some compression in addition to the tape echo that is very helpful in getting you close. Your DD-20 is a good unit, however, I believe that what is holding you back are the Shadows patches for digital units such as the Alesis Q2 or Q2 and the Yamaha Magic Stomp units. While these units will not be as good as the real tape echo units such as the Binson, Meazzi and the like, they are convenient, affordable and available with some looking.

I am no Hank Marvin expert, but I enjoy trying to capture his sound. Please let me know how you make out in your experimentation.

[gemini_iii]

Hi Markus, I'm new to this group, but I've enjoyed the sounds of The Shadows for many years. In my opinion, the first thing to do is to listen. Listen very carefully to what is being achieved on record. That sounds very simple, and I don't wish to sound patronising. It's important, though. I first heard The Shadows on a 45rpm record played on a simple "Dansette" player here in the UK at the age of 15. You can imagine the quality level !! What I heard then doesn't compare with what I hear now, some 48 years later, on better equipment. Everything we hear is subjective, though, so your ideas will be different to mine and everyone else's. That applies, of course, to everything. The sound-mix of the rest of The Shads on the recording is also important - frequency cancellation and/or enhancement plays a big part in what we perceive too. Don't worry too much about the melody for now - that can wait for a bit. Try and analyse what you are hearing - is it crisp, is it mellow, is it glassy, or is it enhanced by echo or compression, or a limiter? It's not at all easy to analyse the sound of Hank and The Shadows - but you seem to have the right equipment for starters, so experiment with a whole variety of settings. Some of it, you'll never achieve - it was constructed in the studio. You're not alone, though. There are millions of people like you and me who seek that "Holy Grail" of "That Sound". The most important thing to remember is that, while you are playing and enjoying making music, even if within your own personal space, you are losing yourself in an environment which is inviolate. Anyway, try (for example), Blue Star. Use the middle pickup of the Highway Strat. Not too much treble on the amp, and a "long" echo setting. You need to achieve some clear mid-tones without too much sharpness at the top. You don't say whether you have any backing tracks to play along with. If not, I would seriously suggest Gorang Tangring's website. He is just about THE major contributor to this forum, as well as others, and has laid down hundreds of hours of backings and renditions. You can download them free of charge. Where he finds the time, I'll never know. We'd be lost without him !! http://goran.tangring.com/ Good luck, you'll get there. Keep us posted. David JM

[doctorno]

Thank you very much, Peter and David, for your helpful and insightful answers. I will certainly try to follow your hints.

In the past I have never tried to copy the sound of another guitarist. I had my own sound in mind and tried to develop it. Today I can say that I have been successful with that. I have got "my own" sound with my Rickenbacker guitars and I can even achieve it with different equipment. I can get almost the same satisfying results when recording with my AC30 and a Marshall Jackhammer distortion miked up with a Groove Tubes large diaphragm condenser mike for example, or alternatively when I am recording the guitar directly into the tape machine or computer with my first generation Hughes & Kettner Tubeman.

But the Hank Marvin sound is something very special to my ears and in addition to my "own" guitar sounds I would like to be able to capture this sound from time to time when it is appropriate for a song or just for the fun of playing Shadows tunes at home.

I have come to a point where I think that it is not possible to get the Hank Marvin tone with a RIC - I can do everything else I like with my RICs. I have surprised people with heavy metal and punk rock sounds they would never have thought a RIC was capable of - but Hank Marvin? No way. Am I wrong?

If I understand you correctly, the Fender Highway 1 Strat could do the job. Is there no special "vintage style" Strat you need? Once again: what about the pickups? There are so many Strat models with so many different pickups that I get confused. I have already found out, that I do not like the 2nd and 4th position of the pickup switch with the Highway 1. With a Strat it seems to be the best choice to use only one pickup - preferably the middle pickup, as you have also said, David. But is the middle pickup the first choice for a Hank Marvin tone in general?

Last but not least: are there any special playing techniques to achieve the Marvin tone? When I watch the videos of him playing it seems that he is not doing anything very special or unfamiliar except using the whammy bar very often.

Another thought: I love the music of Rory Gallagher - a guitarist who is also using a Strat and an AC30. If I try to copy his sounds with the Highway 1 and the AC30 I have got them at once. If I play his music with my RICs I prefer the sound to Rory´s original. With the sounds of Hank Marvin it is far more difficult.

[admin]

Markus: Well, the Hank Marvin Fender Stratocaster is a good recommendation, however, with the single coil Fender pickups you can get close. If there is a vintage pickup of choice the Custom Show '54 might be the pick of some but in the not too distant past Kinman pickups were also popular. Marvin used different pickup combinations in an attempt to achieve his sound.

[kenposurf]

Yep..what Peter said....no overwound Texas Specials for this one...

[doctorno]

I spent the whole evening experimenting with the Strat and thanks to the hints in this forum, the useful links to the Hank Marvin videos on Youtube and to the Goran Tangring homepage, I think I have got it. I am getting much closer to that sound. It is not the equipment indeed. The main point seems to be that I need to hold my hand and the plectrum in a completely different manner than I am used to from playing my RICs and playing Gibson type guitars. When I am playing like I am used to the Strat sounds thin, but when I turn the plectrum a little, hold my hand differently and hit the strings in a different manner it works.

The right idea came after I watched Hank Marvin on Youtube (I have never actually SEEN him play before). I had always tried to get that sound with both pickups on one of my RICs or the middle pickup of the Strat while hitting the strings rather close to the bridge. Then I saw the difference. Hank clearly uses the bridge pickup most of the time but he hits the strings close to the neck pickup. I tried to do that and it did not work until I turned my hand and the plectrum a little.

Isn´t this funny? I have played guitar for almost 25 years now and always wondered how people could get along with Strats. Now I know.

The rest is quite simple:
- Fender Highway 1 Strat with bridge pickup only
- Top boost channel of the AC30, bass EQ at 6, treble EQ at 3
- BOSS DD-20 with a nice long tape echo
- Reverb on the AC30 turned to 3

I suppose if I had heavier strings on the guitar, I would be there. Never thought that it could be that easy. Again: it is not the equipment - it is your hands. I could probably even do it with a RIC, if I use the different playing technique, that I have just found out about. The only problem is that you need to have a floating vibrato on your guitar - probably a 650CVH with toaster top pickups would do the job almost as good as any Strat.

Thank you all very much for your help.

[admin]

Great posts, Markus.

The discovery that we can get close to the Hank Marvin sound is rewarding in and of itself. His picking style is also one of the important components in finding "that sound."

With changing times comes changing equipment and that too presents a challenge. I have not heard Hank Marvin live, but some guitarists who have had the opportunity have commented that even Hank has some trouble replicating the "original" tone.

[goran]

As pointed out, Hank has trouble replicating the original tone, In fact, I'm sure he does not even have any desire to do so - for him that was just the way he sounded back them and as he has moved forward both as a person and a musician his desires has changed. I'm sure that today he prefers the fuller and smoother tone of his late recordings (and live performances), he probably does not consider his younger self or "that sound" the icons we anoraks do.........

[doctorno]

As pointed out, Hank has trouble replicating the original tone, In fact, I'm sure he does not even have any desire to do so - for him that was just the way he sounded back them and as he has moved forward (...)

This is understood. Imagine somebody would tell you that he loved the sound you had 20, 30 or 40 years ago. How would you react? We all develop as persons and as musicians and if we would end up replicating the things we did 40 years ago, this would be extremely sad.

After all it is not so much my intention to sound exactly like Hank Marvin between 1959 and 1963 but to get an appropriate tone for his Shadows tunes at all ... and, as I have said before, I am getting closer to this now - thanks, in part, to your help.

[admin]

Markus: The daily challenges that we provide ourselves serve to enrich our lives.

To the extent that we fully reach our quest in attaining "that sound", only the Shadow knows.

Put another way, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[doctorno]

I have recorded "Sleepwalk" - one of my favorite Shadows tunes - on Sunday. I am getting closer to "that sound", although I am afraid that you Hank Marvin experts will tell me that I did not get anywhere near it:

http://homepage.mac.com/markushorn/Web/Sleepwalk.mp3

Just for the fun of it, I redid my recording replacing the two guitar tracks played with the Fender Highway 1 Strat with my Rickenbacker 650AVH. This is the result:

http://homepage.mac.com/markushorn/Web/Sleepwalk-RIC650.mp3

My next step will be to equip the Strat with heavier strings and to practise this song a little more - I am not quite happy with a few things concerning my playing yet - especially the overall timing (I am a little "behind the time", I think - especially when I am playing the Strat - I have to get used to this guitar and the different plectrum technique that I need), the slide to the high g right in the beginning, the slide down from c to a at the end of each verse a.s.o.

[admin]

Markus: I think that your efforts are brilliant.

To my ear the Stratocaster gets closer to the truth but I also very much like the idea that you also did a find job with the Model 650A. The latter is a bit too edgy if you are going for the "Marvin ideal."

I find your phrasing to be excellent. I would appreciate knowing what effects you used. I would say that if you find the EFTP patches that you would be very pleased with the outcome.

[sir_andrew_of_left_coast]

I quite liked what I heard with the 650.

(Like the old TV show: Mission Impossible)
"Your mission, Doctor No, should you decide to accept it, is to record Atlantis... with your Atlantis."

[admin]

Andrew: I agree that the 650 was impressive, just a tad too much break up for me for this song. Your challenge for Markus is, however, a great one.