High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Building pickups from the ground up

Moderator: jingle_jangle

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (jps) » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:32 pm

A silverface Princeton Reverb Amp up until the master volume/distortion version is, still the blackface circuit; this is one amp that CBS never messed with, they sound fantastic and are fairly reasonable $$$ to buy.
User avatar
(jps)
RRF Consultant
 
Posts: 36419
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:00 am
Location: Not of this Earth

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (JakeK) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:47 pm

The Deluxe Reverb was the same as the Princeton, too, Jeff. Just a new look, circuit was not touched.
(JakeK)
RRF Consultant
 
Posts: 5737
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:08 pm
Location: Undisclosed

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (jps) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:01 pm

JakeK wrote:The Deluxe Reverb was the same as the Princeton, too, Jeff. Just a new look, circuit was not touched.

Nice to know that; I was just looking at the schematics of the reissue and that does seem to be the case, basically.
User avatar
(jps)
RRF Consultant
 
Posts: 36419
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:00 am
Location: Not of this Earth

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (analogpackrat) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:00 pm

Actually quite a few things changed on the DR from BF to SF. Most are on the schematic, some are not.

-Rectifier changed from GZ34 (low series resistance) to 5U4 (higher series resistance and 50% more filament current draw)
-First stage PS resistance is lower (higher preamp and PI tube voltages = more clean headroom)
-1M PI resistors changes to 330k (lossier)
-Lead dress sloppier in SF = more prone to HF oscillation (see next item)
-1200pF caps on power tube grids to gnd (to kill any oscillation = less sparkly highs)
-Possible PT B+ winding change to account for different voltage drop on rectifier
-Increased PI input cap (more low end on SF)

I've changed my '77 SFDR to mostly BF specs. I use a 12AY7 in V2 to give me more clean headroom, but I lose some of the classic overdrive tone. Snipping the 1200pF caps required some lead dress adjustments. It sounded OK before, now it's really a nice amp. Some of you heard it at BARC last year.

I don't know what the BF-SF differences are on a PR, but I imagine they are similar. Some of the SF amps are deals compared to new all-tube amps. The DR has gotten pretty pricey ($1k+), but you can get the bigger Pro Reverb for the same or less. A SF Twin is about the same price and 4x the power plus it has a mid control and bright switch.
If it is to be, it is up to me.
User avatar
(analogpackrat)
Member
 
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:34 am
Location: California

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (paologregorio) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:57 pm

Follow up; I installed 7.4K "Scatterwound" toasters on my six string WB Blue Boy. The guitar lacked the clarity and output across the tonal range that another WB of mine, Big Red, has that is equipped with "hot" toasters. With the amp set the same for both guitars, there was a significant, noticeable difference If I used any sort of overdrive or boost, the higher output toasters sustained a lot better and had far more punch. With clean tones the difference was more subtle, but to my ear, the hot toasters win hands down for six strings. I primarily used the bridge pickup position, but I found similar results when using the neck or both p/ups. I installed hot toasters on the Blue Boy and am much happier with the sound. 8)

There is a certain degree of sweetness to the lower output toasters, however. :D
User avatar
(paologregorio)
Senior Member
 
Posts: 6364
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: Long Beach, CA, United States of America

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (jps) » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:09 pm

analogpackrat wrote:Actually quite a few things changed on the DR from BF to SF. Most are on the schematic, some are not.

-Rectifier changed from GZ34 (low series resistance) to 5U4 (higher series resistance and 50% more filament current draw)
-First stage PS resistance is lower (higher preamp and PI tube voltages = more clean headroom)
-1M PI resistors changes to 330k (lossier)
-Lead dress sloppier in SF = more prone to HF oscillation (see next item)
-1200pF caps on power tube grids to gnd (to kill any oscillation = less sparkly highs)
-Possible PT B+ winding change to account for different voltage drop on rectifier
-Increased PI input cap (more low end on SF)

I've changed my '77 SFDR to mostly BF specs. I use a 12AY7 in V2 to give me more clean headroom, but I lose some of the classic overdrive tone. Snipping the 1200pF caps required some lead dress adjustments. It sounded OK before, now it's really a nice amp. Some of you heard it at BARC last year.

I don't know what the BF-SF differences are on a PR, but I imagine they are similar. Some of the SF amps are deals compared to new all-tube amps. The DR has gotten pretty pricey ($1k+), but you can get the bigger Pro Reverb for the same or less. A SF Twin is about the same price and 4x the power plus it has a mid control and bright switch.

I was looking at a DRRI's schematics for my reference above, some things may have changed but they are far more BF than the '70s era amps (I need to dig out my Weber and Pittman books).

The SF PR's circuit was not changed at all, so it is exactly like a '60s BF PR, one of the things I am happy about in my early '70s PR. :D
User avatar
(jps)
RRF Consultant
 
Posts: 36419
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:00 am
Location: Not of this Earth

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (kiramdear) » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:11 am

I'm in Paul's camp on this question: scatterwounds for twelvers and hot toasters for sixers is the way I roll. 8)
All I wanna do is rock!
User avatar
(kiramdear)
RRF Moderator
 
Posts: 9045
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:51 am
Location: Out there

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (stsang) » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:50 am

paologregorio wrote:Follow up; I installed 7.4K "Scatterwound" toasters on my six string WB Blue Boy. The guitar lacked the clarity and output across the tonal range that another WB of mine, Big Red, has that is equipped with "hot" toasters. With the amp set the same for both guitars, there was a significant, noticeable difference If I used any sort of overdrive or boost, the higher output toasters sustained a lot better and had far more punch. With clean tones the difference was more subtle, but to my ear, the hot toasters win hands down for six strings. I primarily used the bridge pickup position, but I found similar results when using the neck or both p/ups. I installed hot toasters on the Blue Boy and am much happier with the sound. 8)

There is a certain degree of sweetness to the lower output toasters, however. :D

Hi Paul, thanks for sharing that. Could you also comment on how high gains compare to the hot toasters? I'm interested to hear about your experience with that.
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
User avatar
(stsang)
Member
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ. USA.

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (wmthor) » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:57 am

kiramdear wrote:I'm in Paul's camp on this question: scatterwounds for twelvers and hot toasters for sixers is the way I roll. 8)


I'm in Paul's camp too. My '96 1997 has the hot toasters and the 360/12 CW has the scatterwounds. I see no need to change.
'98 360 LH MG
'63 1000 FG (it belongs to my nephew now)
'96 1997 LH MG
'00 360/12 Carl Wilson LH FG
'07 730S Shiloh LH
'97 360/12v64 LH FG
'08 660/12 LH FG
'40s DC-12 Lap Steel (it belongs to my nephew now)
'15 4003 LH FG
User avatar
(wmthor)
Veteran RRF member
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:14 am
Location: Cypress, Texas

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (stsang) » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:48 pm

wmthor wrote:I'm in Paul's camp too. My '96 1997 has the hot toasters and the 360/12 CW has the scatterwounds. I see no need to change.

For me it depends on whether I feel like playing early Byrds/Beatles/The Who or later stuff such as The Smiths/R.E.M./XTC A quick solder job is all it takes. :wink:
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
User avatar
(stsang)
Member
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ. USA.

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (stsang) » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:58 pm

Long story short... I managed to break two of my TI flat strings while checking the state of the truss rods on my 360/12 (I know - not too smart :oops: ). I only had the stock Rickenbacker strings to hand - the compressed round wound 12-string set - which I promptly installed on my Ric. To my horror, my Ric sounded louder, over-bright, brittle, lacking in twang, and missing the clean jangle I had before. I realized I was hearing what others on this Forum have complained about with 12.4K toasters on 12-strings! This evening, I reinstalled the 7.4K toasters and now everything is sweet, clean and jangly and the world is a happy place again. So, what has worked for me are: TI flats + 12.4K toasters and Ric strings + 7.4 toasters. Hope my experience helps someone else who reads this post.
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
User avatar
(stsang)
Member
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ. USA.

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (Folkie) » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:20 pm

Simon,

I'm a stickler for TI Flats and 7.4K toasters. You just can't have too much treble and chime!

Robert
(Folkie)
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (stsang) » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 pm

Folkie wrote:I'm a stickler for TI Flats and 7.4K toasters. You just can't have too much treble and chime!

I guess you can't argue with that! :)
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
User avatar
(stsang)
Member
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ. USA.

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (stsang) » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:03 am

Folkie wrote:I'm a stickler for TI Flats and 7.4K toasters. You just can't have too much treble and chime!

Just to follow up, I think the TI flats provide a smoother, clean, almost compressed sounding tone that the non-flats I've tried don't. That tone seems to work great with any pickup. In my case, I really liked how the 12.4Ks emphasized the warmth of the strings while still retaining the jangle. You prefer the brighter jangle. :wink: Now, I also love the sound of the Ric 95404 12-string set + 7.4Ks.

To my ears, the Ric strings generate more harmonics than the TI flats. I think it's those extra harmonics that interacted with the 12.4K PUs to create the harshness I heard. Using the 7.4Ks cleans things up nicely - you still get the harmonics, but it sounds so clean and sweet! Of course, as discussed earlier this thread, what amp you use will also greatly affect things. I'm making comparisons with the Ric DI'd and EQ'd straight to a mixing desk.
2010 360/12c63 FG
2002 360/12 MG (mod with 7.4K scatterwound toasters, push/pull switch for 0.0047uF bridge cap)
User avatar
(stsang)
Member
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 pm
Location: Jersey City, NJ. USA.

Re: High gain (11k) toasters vs. 7.4k toasters

Postby (soundmasterg) » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:33 am

A couple other things to note as far as differences mentioned above with the blackface vs silverface thing is that the cabinets changed also...around 1971 they went to particle board and I think the baffle changed too. The power transformer IS different for the Deluxe Reverb amps with the 5U4 rectifier tube, and the amps have a higher voltage overall too. Even in the blackface amps though, the very early Deluxe Reverbs have lower voltages than the mid period blackface amps. I've worked on a couple 1964 DR's with plate voltages right around 400, and the two '66 DR's I worked on were more like 420v, and that is with today's higher wall voltages. A friend has a 1973 DR that I converted to blackface specs, and I think it sounds just as good or better than the '66's did, and is close to the 64's with more headroom. The Princeton Reverbs are very similar to the DR's. Use a 10 inch speaker, a different phase inverter design, bias modulating trem, a smaller cabinet, not many other differences to note on those.

Greg

P.S. I'm with a lot of the others in that I prefer 7.4k toasters for my 12 string Ric, but 6 strings with toasters sound better to my ears with a hot toaster in the bridge position. For the neck and middle I like the 7.4k's there. I also like the vintage, lower wind Hi gains in 6 strings much better than the modern hotter ones, and I also like the humbuckers for riff rock stuff. I also really like flats on Rics.
User avatar
(soundmasterg)
RRF Consultant
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:06 pm
Location: Cornelius, Oregon, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Winding Up With The Best: by Sergio Silva

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests