650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (aceonbass) » Mon May 06, 2013 1:32 pm

Darin.....Since you bought the guitar to sit in it's case, why do you care if it actually works? Of all the guitars RIC makes, you bought a 650D as a "collectors piece"? Learn to play guitar. It's much more fun than staring at the case :roll:
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (sloop_john_b) » Mon May 06, 2013 2:44 pm

Wait wait wait.

You took it out of the case? Any self-respecting collector would know better.

I can't believe you'd even think of repairing that pickup. It is original man!

Next you're gonna tell me you change strings.

And you call yourself a collector. Pah.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (soundmasterg) » Tue May 07, 2013 3:27 am

Grey wrote:
soundmasterg wrote:I think that it was sort of rude for Mr. Hall to mention that there was a problem with some of these pickups and then to say that the customer was at fault because he didn't play his guitar and let it go out of warranty. I haven't read the original post over at the RIC site and I probably won't because I'm too busy these days


I think it was sort of rude for you to write about what someone may or may not have said and then admit that you couldn't be bothered to read the actual post. :roll:

From the Corporate forum;

It's also unfortunate that you didn't check out your instrument from time to time, as your warranty would have covered it into 2010, assuming you registered it. Had you chosen to give it "stage abuse" like some of your other instruments, this problem likely would have been done and sorted.

The reason for the failure is likely corrosion as the earliest RoHS solder and fluxes we (and the rest of the industry) were forced to use were not so wonderful. But most of those failures we already took care of under warranty already. If you have other instruments of any make (that were made to legal lead-free standard) in the 2004-2006 time period, your odds are that you will encounter additional failures.


Yeah you're probably right...it is sort of rude for me to comment on hearsay...but oh well, deal with it. :mrgreen:

Thanks for posting the actual post in question. After reading it I don't think it was rude and Mr. Hall phrased it pretty well....but I still think RIC should have had an extended warranty and/or sent out a notice to customers from that era that there may be a problem with their pickups and they should send them in for inspection or something. The owner has a right to be annoyed by the shoddy workmanship, and it doesn't give Rickenbacker a very good reputation when people find out they made defective products and left the owners to their own devices for the most part. It happens all the time with recalls for cars and other products....it happened to me on a DVD player a couple years ago...good thing too as it failed within the extended warranty, most likely due to non-lead solder. As consumers we are stupid to accept products made with non-lead solder. Sure we know lead is bad for you, but on the other hand how much lead really leaches out of a solder connection, especially if you put recycling programs in place so those things with leaded solder in them don't get into landfills. Leaded solder is still mandated for medical, aviation, military...critical electronics anyway. I wonder why??? Its because they want to make sure those things will work. There is a website I have bookmarked somewhere that documents failures due to non-lead solder and tin whiskers. There are satellite failures....failures in a control board in a nuclear power plant...good thing they had a backup system eh? I used to work at a place that had a 50 year warranty on their products. After the ROHS non-lead solder switchover, that changed to 10 years and now 6 years. I personally think the ROHS non-lead solder stuff was sold as an environmental thing, but it was really an economic thing. So in summary....its understandable that RIC would have had problems with using the ****** solder that was available then, but I am of the opinion that they should have done something about it such as an extended warranty or a customer notice for the instruments in question, and I fully understand the OP's disgruntlement....

Greg
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (ken_j) » Tue May 07, 2013 11:01 am

I believe the big issue with lead free solder is the fumes created during the soldering process. It is probably more for the workers than any other reason. I sill use and will continue to use lead/tin solder as long as it is available.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (cjj) » Tue May 07, 2013 11:23 am

Actually, the big issue with lead free solder is that the EU has made it essentially illegal to sell products made with lead based solder. So, if you want to sell in the EU, you have to switch to lead free. The reasons are for operator safety, and for reducing hazardous materials entering the waste stream (putting lead in land fills, etc.), among other things.

The next issue is that the melting temperatures are different (higher) for lead free solder and it takes a different flux to clean the joints properly. This means that there are slightly different soldering processes required. Fluxes have been refined to make good joints easier to achieve, but there's still a bit of a learning curve for soldering techs to get the hang of making good joints...
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (ken_j) » Tue May 07, 2013 12:49 pm

I always discard old electronics on one of the two hazardous waste days per year at the town hall. My waste never goes near a landfill as far as I know.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (johnallg) » Tue May 07, 2013 10:56 pm

cjj wrote:Actually, the big issue with lead free solder is that the EU has made it essentially illegal to sell products made with lead based solder. So, if you want to sell in the EU, you have to switch to lead free. The reasons are for operator safety, and for reducing hazardous materials entering the waste stream (putting lead in land fills, etc.), among other things.


ken_j wrote:I always discard old electronics on one of the two hazardous waste days per year at the town hall. My waste never goes near a landfill as far as I know.

I would hazard (yeah, that is an intended pun) there is a huge magnitude more free lead occurring naturally in the environment than is put back into landfills. I am sure it leaches into the water tables. Where is the environmental outrage to find all naturally occurring lead and contain it?

Let the flames begin.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (soundmasterg) » Wed May 08, 2013 3:05 am

cjj wrote:Actually, the big issue with lead free solder is that the EU has made it essentially illegal to sell products made with lead based solder. So, if you want to sell in the EU, you have to switch to lead free. The reasons are for operator safety, and for reducing hazardous materials entering the waste stream (putting lead in land fills, etc.), among other things.

The next issue is that the melting temperatures are different (higher) for lead free solder and it takes a different flux to clean the joints properly. This means that there are slightly different soldering processes required. Fluxes have been refined to make good joints easier to achieve, but there's still a bit of a learning curve for soldering techs to get the hang of making good joints...


I think the whole lead free thing was sold to the legislators as an environmental thing, but it was really economics that drove it and continue to drive it. The fumes of leaded solder can be controlled with a fan...and wash your hands after handling it solves anything remaining on your hands....obviously you don't want to eat after handling it without washing your hands. The whole waste stream thing sounds good on paper but putting proper recycling in place, which largely has been the case in most EU countries for a long time...and there is no issue. Add in that there are exceptions for things such as autos, aircraft, medical, military, nuclear, etc., and how much are you really saving vs the increased waste due to products failing sooner and all of the excepted products? Thankfully the US hasn't jumped on that bandwagon yet, and hopefully they won't as the lead-free "solutions" aren't really that great. I've worked at Intel and Rodgers Instruments where I've dealt with the whole lead-free solder thing in the past. I was at Rodgers as they went through the transition and they spent millions of dollars getting changed over to lead free and getting everything certified and cleared, and years later they still have trouble with lead free solder and malfunctions associated with it. They changed their product warranty from 50 years to 10 and then 6 years because they don't think their products will last much longer than that. Would you want to spend $80,000 on an organ that will last 6 years? Not me thanks!

At Intel they recently went completely lead free in the labs where I worked and despite some serious training for the rework techs several years previous and constant use and testing they still have troubles with lead free. One guy had never used anything but lead free...and he used some leaded before they got rid of it and wondered why they didn't just stick with leaded solder as it was so much easier to work with. Another company up here that I interviewed with is still using leaded in testing but they have found they need to use lead free in testing also because some problems that don't appear with leaded show up with lead free such as poor contact on PCB's with the chips they solder down. They tried lead-free in the 20's and ended up going back to lead....hopefully they will make the change back again.

I agree with you John that there is probably more lead already in the environment than what is leaching away from electronics in landfills or otherwise. I still use leaded myself, though if I had to sell stuff in Europe, China, Japan, or other ROHS countries, I'm not sure what I would do.....

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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (cjj) » Wed May 08, 2013 9:10 am

Oh come on guys! You're trying to apply logic and reality to politics and revenue generation!
:roll: :lol: :shock:

The fact of the matter is, the RoHS rules do exist at present and if you want to play in the game, you either have to get an exception (rather difficult) or follow 'em...
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (johnhall) » Wed May 08, 2013 11:04 am

Perhaps the primary reason for lead-free is the workers who perform soldering. Even though we've used special workstation filtering fans for years, it's almost impossible to solder without breathing some fumes and I'd rather it not contain lead.

As far as the pickups processed under the RoHS conversion period, they either will stay working for the life of the instrument or they would fail rather quickly. We did and we will take care of all pickups presented under warranty within the 5 year period and would have done the same in this case.

The point of an extended warranty is to cover FAILURES that occur beyond the normal warranty period, not the FAILURE of the owner to report it within a reasonable time period.

Our opinion is that 5 years is rather generous for audio/video/computer electronic components under any circumstance and I can't think of any piece of electronic gear I've ever purchased that had a warranty of that length. As was pointed out, many makers reduced their warranty due to RoHS- we did not.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (Lefty4001) » Wed May 08, 2013 12:26 pm

johnhall wrote:Perhaps the primary reason for lead-free is the workers who perform soldering. Even though we've used special workstation filtering fans for years, it's almost impossible to solder without breathing some fumes and I'd rather it not contain lead.

As far as the pickups processed under the RoHS conversion period, they either will stay working for the life of the instrument or they would fail rather quickly. We did and we will take care of all pickups presented under warranty within the 5 year period and would have done the same in this case.

The point of an extended warranty is to cover FAILURES that occur beyond the normal warranty period, not the FAILURE of the owner to report it within a reasonable time period.

Our opinion is that 5 years is rather generous for audio/video/computer electronic components under any circumstance and I can't think of any piece of electronic gear I've ever purchased that had a warranty of that length. As was pointed out, many makers reduced their warranty due to RoHS- we did not.


With all due respect to David Bowie:

You had 5 years to plug in your prize
Five years to see if they're fried
Five Years. You feel you've been wronged?
Five Years. You waited too long

Sell the guitar. It don't work.
'turn up the bass'
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (Petenbacker) » Wed May 22, 2013 8:59 pm

I have an idea! :shock:
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (johnallg) » Wed May 22, 2013 9:01 pm

Petenbacker wrote:I have an idea! :shock:

I'm listening.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (08 Ric 4003) » Mon May 27, 2013 1:23 pm

Have you checked the resistance of the actual pickup you suspect is not working. If you take an ohm meter to it an it reads open (high resistance) then it needs to be replaced or rewound. Your pickup should read maybe somewhere between 4k for a low output pup to maybe 11k fora higher gain pup. If you get a reading in that range it is not your pickup. You said the pickup had low output which means it had some output. You also said you bypassed everything and went straight to the amp with no joy. Not sure how much you do or don't know about troubleshooting guitar electronics.
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Re: 650D HB-1 pickup premature death.

Postby (aceonbass) » Mon May 27, 2013 4:25 pm

HB1's are pretty consistently between 14K-15K. If one coil is shorted, then you'll get exactly half of that. Since these pickups have been so consistent in their construction over the years, you'll never get a rating as low as 4K or as high as 11K. It'll either be about 7.5K or 15K. Since they are a potted pickup, they cannot be rewound.
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