Help me identify this guitar

[HH1978]

Hello,

It's my first post, though I've been hanging around this forum for a long time.
I'm located in Belgium. I'm the proud owner of a 1966 360/12, of which I'll post pictures soon (but I'm moving house, so it will have to wait.)

But the subject of this post is not technically a Rickenbacker guitar.
I'd like to have your thoughts and opinion on a particular guitar I own.
I've been a fan of Paul Barth's work for a long time, and last year I acquired this guitar, which seems to be just in between a Rickenbacker and a Magnatone Typhoon :





The body is made of maple, like a Ric. It has a translucent white pickguard pretty much like a Ric too. The tailpiece is similar to Teisco hook-under clamshell, I think. The bridge I can't tell, but the routing suggests the guitar had a Typhoon bridge in the past.



The pickups and wiring are identical to a Typhoon's, the slide switch closer to the bridge beeing the circuit selector. The red/brown tips on the stackpole switches are identical to those found on all my starstream series instrument. The stackpole pots date code are 1965, same numbers as on most of my Magnatone, so I guess they bought a batch.





The neck pocket has a signature and date. I can't read the signature, but it begins with a "B" and the date is july 1964. Does anybody here know how Barth's signature looks like?



The body shows some strange routing under the pickguard. Not sure who did this. There are holes 1/2" deep all around the pickup cavity (old style chambering?).



The finish is unusual: wine red/natural burst, with a very fine dusting coat of metallic grey (like Fender's Inca silver). I can't tell if the finish is original.



The neck is bird's eye maple, it has a Ric's headstock shape, 24.75" scale length, 21 frets, two truss rod, lacquered rosewood fretboard, 4mm pearl dots inlays, but it is 3-bolt with the same pattern as a Magnatone 200.





I don't have a clue what's the stoty of this guitar. Everything (except maybe there's no zero fret) points to Paul Barth. I have made my hypothesis, but I'd really like to hear yours.
This is my favourite guitar. I'm sorry to say I love it even more than my 1966 360/12. The sound it produces has a warmth that I never found in any other guitar, and yet the sound is very defined. It is also the most versatile guitar I own (14 different sounds, all are usable, 3 are to die for).
It could be unique, I don't know, it is, at least very rare.

So if you know anything about it, I'll gladly take the informations.

Cheers,

Hugues




[jdawe]

That's an extremely cool guitar.

I can't shed much light on its origins, but based on what I've read on-line, Barth built the "Artist Series" guitars for Magnatone in his own shop from between 1958 and 1960, and was then hired in 1964 to design the Starstream series which were built in Magnatone's own factory. 1964 was also apparently when he got involved in designing Bartell guitars.

Given the date on yours and the strong resemblance of the body to the Magnatone Starstream design, I wonder if it might be a prototype Starstream that Barth put together in his own shop using a Rickenbacker (or at least a Rickenbacker-inspired) neck?

[Ric5150]

That middle pickup looks a bit diffent from the others (magnets aside). I wonder someone they cleared out all of that wood under the pickguard to add that. Then again, if it's a proto, who knows what the order of things was. Having all of those horizontal holes is definitely odd.

[jdawe]

A little more info -- according to the first link below, the Starstreams didn't go into production until "late 1964", which seems consistent with the hypothesis that your July, 1964 guitar is a prototype.

The second link below notes further that Barth's earlier "Artist Series" designs from the late '50s/early '60s used a three-screw bolt-on neck. The headstock shape was somewhat similar to the Rickenbacker shape but not as close as yours is. I haven't been able to figure out if they had dual truss rods. My guess is that your neck is an actual Rickenbacker neck that Barth had left over.

http://www.magnatoneamps.com/starstream.html
http://www.magnatoneamps.com/guitars50s.html

[iiipopes]

That middle pickup looks a bit diffent from the others (magnets aside). I wonder someone they cleared out all of that wood under the pickguard to add that. Then again, if it's a proto, who knows what the order of things was. Having all of those horizontal holes is definitely odd.

It looks to me like the middle pickup lost its bar magnets.

[Ric5150]

That middle pickup looks a bit diffent from the others (magnets aside). I wonder someone they cleared out all of that wood under the pickguard to add that. Then again, if it's a proto, who knows what the order of things was. Having all of those horizontal holes is definitely odd.

It looks to me like the middle pickup lost its bar magnets.

That's kinda where I was going with "(magnets aside)", but I'm not sure the middle one necessarily had bar magnets. The only clear pole piece on that middle pup is the uppermost one in the photo (low E) and that's definitely not just a screw showing. The others are obscured by the wiring but also don't appear to be screws. Maybe that middle one has magnets as pole pieces?

Need to have a clearer photo. Alternately, info like "the middle pickup is dead" would help, but bar magnets or not, there's still something different there.

[HH1978]

Hello,

Thanks for all your inputs

The middle pickup is indeed different from the others. Magnatone used two different designs on the Starstreams : the fisrt one is p90-like, two bars magnets on the Tornado (both pickups) and on the Typhoon (neck and bridge positions); the second one has rough cast magnet polepieces and was used on the Zephyr (both positions) and the Typhoon (middle position). Here are pictures of my starstream :

Typhoon :



Tornado :



Zephyr :



When you look at the Typhoon, it's clear that the electronics are exactly the same as on the guitar we try to identify. I drawed a diagram, but forgot one ground lead (from upper volume pot ground lug to S1, same pin as the neck pickup ground):

The second link below notes further that Barth's earlier "Artist Series" designs from the late '50s/early '60s used a three-screw bolt-on neck. The headstock shape was somewhat similar to the Rickenbacker shape but not as close as yours is. I haven't been able to figure out if they had dual truss rods. My guess is that your neck is an actual Rickenbacker neck that Barth had left over.

Indeed, the 150 and the 200, which were a redesign of the artist series, had the same bolt-on pattern as mine. The first generation had only two screws. The 150 and the 200 are probably the rarest of the Magnatones, but I think english guitarist and collector Paul Brett has a 150. I'll try to ask him and see if his guitar has a dual truss rod. My guess was also that Barth used a leftover from when he worked for Rickenbacker, but I've been told they never made 21 frets bolt-on necks, so that remains a mystery.

That middle pickup looks a bit diffent from the others (magnets aside). I wonder someone they cleared out all of that wood under the pickguard to add that. Then again, if it's a proto, who knows what the order of things was. Having all of those horizontal holes is definitely odd.

I spoke with Doug (from Magnatoneamps.com). His guess about the routing was that Barth did it in his own shop with a chisel and a drill after returning from Magnatone's facilities on the east coast. But who knows? My best guess is that the guitar originally had the same pickups and electronics as found on the artist series. I have a Mark IX, but I don't remember how it looks like inside, and as I'm in the process of moving house, I can't open it now. The pickups are narrower anyway, and there might have been only two of them, which would explain that additional routing to accomodate a Typhoon's harness.

The bridge was also changed when the routing was done. Not sure if it was the initial intention or a result of the wood beeing damaged in the bridge area when the routing was done. The tailpiece looks original, so the guitar never had a trem unit, which makes a floating bridge unneccesary. The original floating bridge looked like that :

I wonder if it might be a prototype Starstream that Barth put together in his own shop using a Rickenbacker (or at least a Rickenbacker-inspired) neck?

That's also my hypothesis, though Doug didn't agree with that, thinking the guitar is too different from the Starstream production. To me, the Starstream series's designs and finishes suggest that the commercial target was competition with Fender. The design of this particular guitar would have led to a different positioning, so I suppose it was rejected. But again, it's only an hypothesis. Also, the Starstream have poplar bodies, while this one is maple. I suppose maple was already more expensive than poplar but I'm not sure.

Regarding the history of this guitar, I discovered a couple of days ago, speaking with Sam of Southside Guitars that it sold in New-York two years ago. I asked him if he remembers where he got it, but I haven't received a reply yet. I bought it myself from a Californian seller last year, so it had made its way back to the West Coast.

https://reverb.com/item/403083-unknown-mystery-1962