What is/what is not?

A journey beyond mainstream to rebel music

Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (sowhat) » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:50 pm

If the founders did not want their new music form classified in any way then perhaps their first mistake was to accept a label of any sort.

Well, maybe, but what should they have done in order not to be labelled? Fight the society, start a legal fight against music journalists? Like, when i was asked whether i am a punk or a hippie, i answered, "I'm Sheena" (which, in some way, is a label by itself, but i've never seen anybody who'd live without a name of any kind), but i cannot forbid other people to call me whatever they decided for themselves i am.
Well, try to compare punk and metal as far as sub-genres go. There are quite a few sub-genres of metal, and how many sub-genres of punk could you name? Or take a "style" named "swamp rock". How many swamp rockers do you know? :wink:
Punk has a message, it's related to a certain attitude and vision and a broad yet distinctive — by some elements — sound. Short, loud, fast, simple, as well as rock'n'roll and based on it, but wilder, intentionally anti-establishment. Which doesn't mean it cannot embrace elements of other styles — no music form can develop in vacuum. As far as the name is concerned — well, people tend to give a name to something that already exists but isn't defined yet, that's very human. Put in a box, attach a label, and when it's finally classified, they feel fine and comfortable, and the world becomes understandable and explained. (And the broader is the classification, the fatter encyclopaedias become, and the more money their authors get for writing them.)
Personally, i don't really care about name. You may call it "rotten cheeze" or whatever, or not call anything at all — i, for one, wouldn't mind. You may even tell me it doesn't exist. :D
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (kenposurf) » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:03 am

Primal...music that aims below the waist...surf/garage/punk...all part of the same family...
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (winston) » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:33 am

kenposurf wrote:...surf/garage/punk...all part of the same family...


George, please explain this comment. I am confused. What does surf have to do with punk? Musically they sound nothing alike and as far as I know the lifestyles are radically different. Please don't get me going on the "garage" monicker. :roll:
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (kenposurf) » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:29 pm

Surf is considered by many to be the first punk wave. Now..depends on your def of what punk is but for those of us (me too) who agree with that statement it's music that is basic in structure and that a certain strata (young people many who were/are not happy with the state of commerical crud can relate too..also for young musicians who can feel that hey I can play that and hey I can relate to that sound/lyric/vibe etc....The Ventures song Walk Don't Run is said to have launched 10,000 garage bands. Though pre surf, I don't think many would question Link Rays Rumble, Rawhide or Jack The Ripper as having a strong punk feel. Now we can mince words and call some proto-punk, post punk etc but to me again it's music that is simple but strong in content..does not have to be anti anything or pro anything for that mater...we can split hairs ..were the Ramones punk...how about Arthur Lee and Love or The Seeds..again to me they would fall into surf-garage-punk...no teen idols allowed!
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (winston) » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:21 pm

Thanks George,

I am not sure if I totally agree with your rationalization but hey if a whole bunch of people subscribe to a theory that I am not sure about...I'll keep an open mind about it . At least until the day after tomorrow. :lol: :D :wink: 8) :roll: :twisted: Now is that punk or what?
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (kenposurf) » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:49 am

No worries Brian...there was a def Punk head during the 80's that was much different from everything else..though there was also quite a difference between the USA and UK vibe.
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (sowhat) » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:10 pm

Warmer and warmer, Brian. I'm sure in some time, you'll become a true punk. :twisted:
(as soon as somebody tells what's a "true punk" and how does one become one :twisted: )
And there's "rage" in garage. Was that one of the reasons for choosing that term? I dunno. Personally, i doubt it. But who cares? :D
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (rictified) » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:59 pm

sowhat wrote:Warmer and warmer, Brian. I'm sure in some time, you'll become a true punk. :twisted:
(as soon as somebody tells what's a "true punk" and how does one become one :twisted: )
And there's "rage" in garage. Was that one of the reasons for choosing that term? I dunno. Personally, i doubt it. But who cares? :D


Garage music had no rage that I've ever known of although I'm sure someone here will disagree. It started out because everyone and his brother had a rock band that usually butchered cover tunes back in the 60's and most of them rehearsed in garages or cellars. The better ones wrote their own stuff and had a few hits and left us some classic tunes.
Punk was a lifestyle of kids who hated most of what was going on back then, hated the status quo and rebelled against everything just about as the hippies had before them but in a different way. They adopted the most repellent music and dress the could find to alienate people which really worked well. I would credit again the Sex Pistols as being the premier repellent band that punks rallied around. The Punk movement didn't last very long just as the hippie movement didn't, just a lot of pretenders aping the lifestyle for many years with a few genuine people really into it. Some people will also argue that it was just a label but labels are needed for brevities sake when discussing social trends. Some of the definitions of punk I've read here are way too broad IMHO.
Garage and punk music are two very different types of music, punk was full of rage (real or feigned) and garage was just a bunch of kids having fun of which I was one. We didn't think of calling what we were playing garage music back then, the term had not been invented yet, that was done in retrospect. We were just having fun.
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (kenposurf) » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:14 pm

I guess it depends if one needs to combine the punk movement with the music. I choose to look at the music as a seperate entity. I do the same with pych and surf as well even though livestyles played into those styles as well. This again leads me to the conclusion that taken aside from the musicians, punks roots are in rockabilly, surf, psych and gasp..garage. The punk attitude of the 70's and 80's no doubt played a role as did the hippie/free love vibe played into the psych era. Now one might look at the band The Cramps for example....they formed in 1976 right in the thick of the punk era ..worth searching out is the "Born Bad" cd set which contains songs performed by or that influnenced this band..you will find rockabilly, blues surf etc. God save the queen...
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (sowhat) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:45 am

Garage music had no rage that I've ever known of although I'm sure someone here will disagree.

As my late friend Andy said, "we were full of rage, and thus we were a ga—rage band" (a true garage band, since they never got out of their garage to a TV screen or a GR compilation — and then some call the Easybeats an "Aussie garage band"...). Of course, the term was invented in retrospect, and the style itself was "music played in a garage", and some may even say that while Texas bands were more into psychedelia, the bands from Chicago or California were more into rock'n'roll & r&b, etc. And perhaps one of the main differences between garage and punk lies in the fact (?) that garage rockers didn't state they didn't want to get into mainstream. Some of them (or their producers) even tried to invent the "next big thing", as it was with the Moguls and "ski music" — they thought it would be a next big thing after surf. As time has shown, it wasn't...
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (rictified) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:59 am

sowhat wrote:
Garage music had no rage that I've ever known of although I'm sure someone here will disagree.

As my late friend Andy said, "we were full of rage, and thus we were a ga—rage band" (a true garage band, since they never got out of their garage to a TV screen or a GR compilation — and then some call the Easybeats an "Aussie garage band"...). Of course, the term was invented in retrospect, and the style itself was "music played in a garage", and some may even say that while Texas bands were more into psychedelia, the bands from Chicago or California were more into rock'n'roll & r&b, etc. And perhaps one of the main differences between garage and punk lies in the fact (?) that garage rockers didn't state they didn't want to get into mainstream. Some of them (or their producers) even tried to invent the "next big thing", as it was with the Moguls and "ski music" — they thought it would be a next big thing after surf. As time has shown, it wasn't...


There was no such term as garage music until well after the music had ended, but garage music was huge here in the States during the mid 60's but it didn't have a name except for rock n roll. It was not an organized form of music at all and there was no rage in it at all except for maybe a few bands, that was later, it wasn't political either, it was just kids having fun. I think there is some revisionist history going on somewhere here. The music business was no where near what it would become later on. Garage was long gone by 1968 or at least the real stuff. Check out The Barbarians, stuff like that, 1965-66 was probably it's hey day. The vultures learned a little later that you had to give it a name and publicize it, only then could you make money from it in an organized way, that is what happened to punk music.
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (sowhat) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:51 am

I must say unfortunately, being born in late 70s, i wasn't there at the time, so i take your word. Of course, Andy never told me they called themselves a garage band back then and he didn't tell me when did this term appear either. Anybody knows exactly when and how did it come to existence? I've first heard it in 90s but maybe it was invented earlier?
The vultures learned a little later that you had to give it a name and publicize it, only then could you make money from it in an organized way, that is what happened to punk music.

Exactly. Give it a tag, put in the box, make money, blah-blah-blah. With a compilation title like "Back from the grave", you can attract quite a few people.
As far as "political" is concerned — well, the closest thing to the subject right off the top of my head is perhaps Exterminators — Declaration of Independence '65. Of course, they don't go as far as 70s and 80s punk bands, but it's a protest song anyway — kind of. :wink:
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (rictified) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:27 pm

sowhat wrote:I must say unfortunately, being born in late 70s, i wasn't there at the time, so i take your word. Of course, Andy never told me they called themselves a garage band back then and he didn't tell me when did this term appear either. Anybody knows exactly when and how did it come to existence? I've first heard it in 90s but maybe it was invented earlier?


I believe it was something to do with the first Rhino Nuggets compilation, it was either coined in the liner notes or more likely it was referenced, I have it but am too lazy to dig it out at the moment.

Here is a link which has a lot of good info in it even though it is wikipedia which is often inaccurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_rock
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (jingle_jangle) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:03 pm

rictified wrote:There was no such term as garage music until well after the music had ended, but garage music was huge here in the States during the mid 60's but it didn't have a name except for rock n roll. Garage was long gone by 1968 or at least the real stuff. Check out The Barbarians, stuff like that, 1965-66 was probably it's hey day.


Funny. When I was in about 5 bands in three years back in '65-'67, we called ourselves garage bands at the time. My last band, Haymarket Square, were in luxury-ville because we were a basement band, and a heated, fully-clubbed-out basement at that.
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Re: What is/what is not?

Postby (kenposurf) » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:34 pm

Hmmmmm "Toys In The Attic"? There are bedroom players...back porch strummers not to mention couch pickers.....seems like some of the disagrrement here is when a particular label was/was not put on a given style of music and if tht is/is not justified :?
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