So, WHEN did it all begin?

A journey beyond mainstream to rebel music

Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (mikethemod1992) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:35 pm

whojamfan wrote:How the MC5 were never bigger just baffles me. They were so much better than so many of those hippy bands that"made it". Their first album was live and absolutely furious. They were the only band that showed up for the "big gig" at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, and were playing when Abbey Hoffman started to encite the riot with the cops that occured. They were actually loading up their van in the middle of it trying to get the hell out of there. Many bands were supposed to play, like the Jefferson Airplane, but no one else showed up. Revolution Rock at its best.


Right on, they were EONS ahead of their time! RIP sonic and Rob
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (kiramdear) » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:26 pm

mikethemod1992 wrote:I think Punk the attitude began with people like Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, and Chuck Berry. Just going against the norm. 60s bands gave influence to 70s bands i think.


I agree. Punk has always been with us. At some point people just started calling it punk. I think it came to distinction in the seventies with the rise of the record industries and the effect that had on the artists, losing creative control etc, and the music in the charts was getting all drippy and lifeless, and socially progressive type music was going down the tubes so the punks identified themselves in order to gain the kind of fans who needed them, those looking for an authentic and mindful music.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (danbind) » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:18 pm

Uhhh....Elvis?

What he was doing was:

1.) VERY out of the mainstream--ANY mainstream
2.) Nobody got it at first
3.) It p**sed a lot of a-dults off
4.) He wore "different" clothes and a different haircut

...and this is the kicker:

5.) HE thought what he was doing was NORMAL. But when it came out, it was VERY different. This seems to be true for many that get credit for being "new and different"--they aren't TRYING to, necessarily, it just comes out that way.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (shamustwin) » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:30 pm

danbind wrote:Uhhh....Elvis?

What he was doing was:

1.) VERY out of the mainstream--ANY mainstream
2.) Nobody got it at first
3.) It p**sed a lot of a-dults off
4.) He wore "different" clothes and a different haircut

...and this is the kicker:

5.) HE thought what he was doing was NORMAL. But when it came out, it was VERY different. This seems to be true for many that get credit for being "new and different"--they aren't TRYING to, necessarily, it just comes out that way.


Pretty much all of this could be used for his later Vegas years.

1.) Very out of the mainstream---ANY mainstream
2.) Nobody (cool) got it at all
3.) P.O.'d a lot of his Rocker fans - many adults now, kids when they first saw him
4.) He wore "different clothes and different haircut" - sequined capes, dyed black bouffant. Surely not the way I went to work.

5.) What became a normal life to him seems very odd to me.

I like Elvis, and I don't want to harsh the mellow of this thread, but I feel sorry for him and disappointed in him. I feel if he would have stuck around a few more years, he would have got himself together. Perhaps become a Traveling Wilbury :lol: . Would he have grown in stature like Johnny Cash did?
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (kiramdear) » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:40 pm

shamustwin wrote:I like Elvis, and I don't want to harsh the mellow of this thread, but I feel sorry for him and disappointed in him. I feel if he would have stuck around a few more years, he would have got himself together. Perhaps become a Traveling Wilbury :lol: . Would he have grown in stature like Johnny Cash did?


+1

Good one, Jerry. I couldn't agree more with your feeling and wondering.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (danbind) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:35 am

Since he (Elvis) sort of was the catalyst for a whole new musical genre, so to speak, I give him a BIG break for what went down later on...particularly as the terms "rock star" and "sold out" (in the artistic sense) hadn't been invented yet.

I would highly recommend the book "Last Train to Memphis" by Peter Guralnick, which details Elvis' life up until he joined the Army (after which everything went awry for him). I spent much of my childhood in Memphis, and Guralnick gets the feel of the place right, so I'm guessing the rest is pretty accurate.

I should note that as a midwesterner transplanted into the mid-South, I did not "get" Elvis until long after he was in the ground. There are many of my musical idols (and he frankly was never one of them) who I get the feeling were, at least somewhat manufactured by the music industry, at least a little bit (even the Beatles had George Martin). But those early Elvis recordings for Sun are pretty primal.

Getting back to the point of this thread (!!), I would put Jimmy Rogers, and Woodie Guthrie, and Hank Williams, in the punk category. They meet a lot of the litmus tests...
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (whojamfan) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:54 pm

One would truly have to define "Punk" or "Punk Rock" to accurately answer what appears to be a question with no answer. While so many things appear to meet the criteria of "antisocial/establishment flavored music", drawing the line between the influences and the defined can be an endless debate. For instance, I would say I was a person well versed in the "Punk" music and subculture, but would never define the "Talking Heads" as punk in any way, shape, or form. Yes, they meet the criteria for being there ay CBGBs in the mid 70s, but beyond that had nothing to do with "Punk" as any kind of a movement or scene.

I think a lot of people equate the rebellion(manufactured or real)of previous artists, with being "punk". "The Who" are a perfect example, as "My Generation" is an anti-establishment record filled with teen angst and "do what we want" lyrics. This became an anthem for Mods, and others as time rolled on. Many artists, so we have seen, have also fueled this fire that was bound to break out. While many have influenced punk, it's definition of being an actual movement, scene, and style of music would have to be mid 70s, and either the UK or USA, depending on your definition of punk.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (BCGUY) » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:39 am

I was never comfortable with the "Punk" label until the early to mid 80's (because the music changed). In my opinion it was a term used in the 70's by the media and the "suits" to pigeon hole bands to try and attract a specific audience, cash in on the movement. For me it was just called "New Wave" and it started as far as I'm concerned in 76 in the UK. While I don't intend to diminish great bands like the Stooges or Ramones I think something different was going on over in the UK that actually made it all happen. The economic environment of a post war country with its disillusioned youth struggling with the concept of a class system and the bleak future it offered. It was a revolution and the youth of the country saw it as their own voice. Angry young men. It was the new wave of music, not their parents music. You can literally look at any UK band from the late 70's early 80's and if you ask them what made them want to play music the answer is usually because they saw the Sex Pistols. Now for what it's worth I'm not an American so beyond a few U.S. bands most of what I listened to was from the UK. Like the Pistols, Clash, Damned, Jam, Joy Division, etc.

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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (rkbsound) » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:35 pm

I think the Ramones gave credibility and inspiration to the UK bands that you are referring to, not to mention the scene itself. Ironically, all of those UK bands became more "famous" than the Ramones at the time (and perhaps now?), and I think the Ramones resented the lack of acknowledgement for what they catalyzed.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (shamustwin) » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:32 pm

rkbsound wrote:I think the Ramones gave credibility and inspiration to the UK bands that you are referring to, not to mention the scene itself. Ironically, all of those UK bands became more "famous" than the Ramones at the time (and perhaps now?), and I think the Ramones resented the lack of acknowledgement for what they catalyzed.


Oh yeah.
And to me they were among the most "rock and roll" of rock and roll bands.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (whojamfan) » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:17 pm

shamustwin wrote:
rkbsound wrote:I think the Ramones gave credibility and inspiration to the UK bands that you are referring to, not to mention the scene itself. Ironically, all of those UK bands became more "famous" than the Ramones at the time (and perhaps now?), and I think the Ramones resented the lack of acknowledgement for what they catalyzed.



And to me they were among the most "rock and roll" of rock and roll bands.



I couldn't agree more. It's sad that the band that covered all of those 60s pop and garage tunes, openly loved rock and roll, and never stopped touring for 30 years never got a hit untill after they broke up. Funny hearing "I wanna be sedated" on the radio in 1998, 20 years after it was released, and still sounding great for what it is-a 3 minute rock and roll song.

UK invented? :roll: How? There was nothing like this untill the Ramones went over there, as well as Johnny Thunders. Steve Jones of the Pistols has copped to stealing Johnnys every move. All of those kids went to see the Ramones got the affirmation they needed that anyone who wanted a band could have one. The Ramones did this everywhere they went, people were forming bands, no longer intimidated by the 7+ minute "classic rock" masterpieces that required skills and years of playing to do. Music had gone back to being the simple, under 3 minute rock and roll song.

I'm not trying to downplay what was happening in the UK at the time, but the Ramones put the flame to that petrol, and punk exploded.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (longhouse) » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:09 pm

I always thought it was late '76 with the Ramones stateside, the Pistols and Clash in the UK. Oi! The Clash left a mostly beautiful canon of work behind them, while the Sex Pistols have, in my opinion, the same intrinsic value as a DIY punk blue jean jacket these 3.5 decades later: nothing.

'course some will argue that the MC5, Stooges, or New York Dolls could claim the vanguard crown.

Patti Smith? I'd rather jab a hot stick into my ear. :P
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (Bighouse) » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:50 am

Actually, around 15,000 years ago, when everyone was drumming the same way, in very expected time-honored traditional rhythms, some young frustrated rebel, yearning for change, dropped his club serendipitiously and expressed his honest angst and anger as part of the performance, and punk was born.

I'm pretty sure that's when it all began.
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (whojamfan) » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:24 pm

Bighouse wrote:Actually, around 15,000 years ago, when everyone was drumming the same way, in very expected time-honored traditional rhythms, some young frustrated rebel, yearning for change, dropped his club serendipitiously and expressed his honest angst and anger as part of the performance, and punk was born.

I'm pretty sure that's when it all began.


Exactly, the attitude can be applied to as far back as history goes................but I'm sure some other caveman called him a poser :lol:
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Re: So, WHEN did it all begin?

Postby (BCGUY) » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:25 am

Back in the day I had never heard of MC5 but I wish I had. Heck I wasn't old enough to appreciate them anyhow. Very cool band given what was out there at the time and what they were up against.

On a side note The Ramones played Vancouver (where I'm from) in 1977 I think it was. I didn't go but I know several who did. They probably sold maybe 30 tickets but a couple hundred people found their way inside. Typical of the time. That gig had a big influence on the local music scene. Something about seeing the band live that kind of legitimized the movement. The crowd was Mods, punks, etc. The different groups kind of all got together for things like this.

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