I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (Ric O'Sound) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:20 pm

whojamfan wrote:Authenticity goes a long way with me as well. Some of my favorite artists and groups are absolutely awful by most peoples standards, but I love 'em. Heart goes so much further than technical ability, IMHO, computers are proof of this, drum machines and loops are as well. I'm not knocking musical brilliance, I'm simply stating it's not the end all to what someone may enjoy listening to.

Don't get me wrong, Mike...the technical level of a performance is not a factor for me. A great song doesn't necessarily have to be performed by virtuoso musicians. A good song is a good song. I mean, you could play "Yesterday" using only downstroked power chords and it would still be great. With Nirvana, it wasn't a question of how they performed their songs, it was the songs themselves. I've just never been impressed by any of their compositions from a strictly musical standpoint.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:29 pm

I noticed that too, that the compositions individually are unsophisticated, bland, in their structures but it's always Kurt's vocal line that transforms them, his pop sensibilities kicked in usually by the first chorus, into the mental fishhooks that they are to me. I read one analogy of Nirvana to, "Black Flag meets Bay City Rollers", or something to that effect :lol: :lol:

Sorry not to mention Dave and Krist yet in this thread. 8)
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (collin) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:35 pm

Ya know, I hate to pull the age card, but I'm gonna chalk it up to a generational thing.

Nirvana is the single most important influence on my life, especially music. I'm not even embarassed to say that (though it's cliched to claim that these days..). They don't reflect the music that I play these days, but they had an incredibly big influence on introducing music to me at a young age.

The thing with Nirvana is.....it was never about technical skill. They were a band opposed to technical skill. Kurt once stated that no guitar player should play a lead that they can't hum. Cobain detested being thought of as a "guitar hero."

Nirvana really have to be viewed in the context of time. Back in the fall of '91, mainstream rock was dead. Guitar heros were like....Yngwie, George Lynch, Steve Vai etc. (any early 90s guitar magazine will attest to this..), Michael Jackson and Michael Bolton shared the top spots in the charts, and young people felt they had no voice. Then some band comes along, pure punk roots, playing simple catchy songs that reflected how they felt, and the "underground" peeked out of seclusion and into the mainstream. Just another example of simplistic punk breaking through thes sludge that popular rock becomes every once in awhile. A band like Nirvana, especially at the time they arrived- seemed like a fresh breath of air and possibility to young people. Care to think how many bands started because of Nirvana? I think a HUGE number of our current Rock bands owe Nirvana without even realizing it.

Teen sprit gets too much credit, but to many people, to my ears....a song like Lithium, Serve the Servants, Aneurysm, Sliver etc. sounds as good, interesting, well-written and classic as something like "yesterday."

Just my $.02

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-Collin

PS.. I cringe when people use the term "Grunge" to describe Nirvana. That's the worst MTV phrase ever created. Mudhoney was grunge (they coined the term, actually)....early Pearl Jam was grunge....Alice in Chains was CERTAINLY grunge, but Nirvana? No. Punk influenced alternative rock, yes. Pop-rock, yes.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (whojamfan) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:02 pm

Kira, I think your statue is really cool, as well as your excitement of finding a new to you band that you like. I got a Joey Ramone bobblehead statue for christmas some years back that makes me smile everytime I look at it. I hope yours has the same affect on you. :D

Collin, you make a great point about them being a breath of fresh air, and them not being a "grunge" band, but a punk influenced one.

Daniel, you are absolutely right about a great song being a great song. Some of my favorites are so technically brilliant I could never hope to play them, and others I can play in my sleep.

Personally, I find it really cool when I discover a new to me band that really gets my attention.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (Ric O'Sound) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:35 pm

collin wrote:Ya know, I hate to pull the age card, but I'm gonna chalk it up to a generational thing.

Perhaps for some, Collin, but I was 26 when Nevermind was released. Not an "old fogey" by any stretch. Many of my friends (including my girlfriend who is now my wife) loved Nirvana. Many still do. I myself could just never warm up to their music.

As much as I love a healthy discussion, I've been around long enough to realize that it's an exercise in futility trying change someone else's opinion about the music they've grown to love, especially if the music or artist in question has had a significant impact on his or her life as Nirvana has had on yours. I respect the musical tastes of others. Imagine how boring the world of music would be if everyone liked the same thing.

At the same time, I don't get all the bashing of '80s rock around here. Granted, it started getting to be a bit much toward the end of the 80s and early 90s, but if you can get past the hairdos and pointy guitars and focus on the music alone, there was a lot of excellent stuff that came out of the "Hair Metal" (God how I hate that term) era. Yes, I openly admit to having been a part of this scene, but you need to remember that at the time it was what the kids wanted to see and hear...and it was not all bad. Sure, my friends chuckle (as do I) when I show them the old promo pics of the band with my poofed up hair and makeup, but I'm not necessarily ashamed of it. It's what our promoter and our management demanded from us. But that was just superficial. Truth is, I was surrounded by an extremely talented group of musicians who could play rings around most of the popular groups today (and not just rock or metal...all but one of us in the group were classically trained musicians with diverse backgrounds in classical, jazz and blues as well).

In a way, I guess I should be grateful that Nirvana helped put an end to that poodle-head look (although Guns N Roses [before Axl got all weird] were already helping to move Rock away from the glam image) but I don't think it would have gone on much longer anyway, even without Nirvana's bursting onto the scene.

And yes, I gigged with a Rickenbacker bass back then, too. Playing time split 50/50 with an MM StingRay.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:48 pm

I agree, Daniel, that bashing a certain style of music or genre serves no useful purpose, much as I've been guilty of it myself in the "spirit of fun" :twisted: , and it's such a subjective notion when it comes to taste. There's good and bad things to say about all of it. We can have fun with the ideas with the knowledge that we sound as silly to our friends as they do to us :lol: :lol: , but the mistake is to place a judgement on anyone for the kind of music they like.

If you look the book up on Amazon (as I just did), there's a radio button for "Add to Baby Registry" :!: :!: :!: :!: Personally, I couldn't think of a worse gift for a mother-to-be :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sorry I'm a little slow on the uptake. Yeah, Paul. Sheeeesh! Can you imagine? :lol: :lol:
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (antipodean) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:20 pm

kiramdear wrote:I agree, Daniel, that bashing a certain style of music or genre serves no useful purpose.


I totally agree Kira, I believe we should bash all kinds of music in an equal-opportunity way, making sure we offend every demographic!!! :twisted: :twisted:

Oh...I just reread your full comment and maybe I misunderstood.... :oops:

BTW As an archnophobe, I'm so glad you ditched the black widow on your avatar in favour of a butterfly.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:28 pm

antipodean wrote:
kiramdear wrote:
BTW As an archnophobe, I'm so glad you ditched the black widow on your avatar in favour of a butterfly.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Didn't mean to scare you. Little Elvira is harmless unless disturbed :wink:but, yeah, she was starting to get to me too.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (Ric O'Sound) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:43 pm

kiramdear wrote:Didn't mean to scare you. Little Elvira is harmless unless disturbed :wink:but, yeah, she was starting to get to me too.

Well, I actually kinda liked the housefly, Kira. Guess we've got different tastes in bugs, too :wink:
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:47 pm

The only problem was that the fly wouldn't be quiet. He kept whining:

... won't you pleeeeease, pleeeeeeeease ...
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (collin) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:17 am

Ric O'Sound wrote:
collin wrote:Ya know, I hate to pull the age card, but I'm gonna chalk it up to a generational thing.

Perhaps for some, Collin, but I was 26 when Nevermind was released. Not an "old fogey" by any stretch. Many of my friends (including my girlfriend who is now my wife) loved Nirvana. Many still do. I myself could just never warm up to their music.

As much as I love a healthy discussion, I've been around long enough to realize that it's an exercise in futility trying change someone else's opinion about the music they've grown to love, especially if the music or artist in question has had a significant impact on his or her life as Nirvana has had on yours. I respect the musical tastes of others. Imagine how boring the world of music would be if everyone liked the same thing.



Whoops! :oops: I've debated the merits of Nirvana on some other forums before, and I noticed a recurring theme where those who didn't like the band were all in their 50s/60s and some had only recently heard the band, so I guess a assumed incorrectly! (which I should never do of course!)

Anyways, I enjoy a healthy discussion too. I think I even know that changing someone's opinion is basically impossible, in fact it's usually harder because their defenses come up. In any case, maybe I'm sick....but I enjoy talking about it- I get to defend a band I love, and that strangely makes me happy :wink:
Hope no offense taken!

Cheers,
-Collin


Ps...about Glam metal---the stuff that 90s alternative bands helped get rid off was more like the ugly tail-end of the whole glam scene. If T.Rex and Slade were the cool beginnings- George Lynch, Warrant, and Cinderalla were the unmentionable end to it all. IMO, when people make fun of it, it was likely because at that point the whole "shtick" of it had gotten so ridiculous and over-the-top, to a laughable point. I think it's something that happens in all great art.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:29 am

collin wrote: I noticed a recurring theme where those who didn't like the band were all in their 50s/60s and some had only recently heard the band


Interesting; that's me on both counts but I think they're great. But I never fit my demographic :lol:

Collin, I like your summary.
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (collin) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:39 am

kiramdear wrote:
collin wrote: I noticed a recurring theme where those who didn't like the band were all in their 50s/60s and some had only recently heard the band


Interesting; that's me on both counts but I think they're great. But I never fit my demographic :lol:

Collin, I like your summary.



Kira- It's quite refreshing, I tell ya, to find open-minded people who appreciate newer music (not just talking Nirvana here). For every thousands of younger kids who love the Beatles and explore older music (myself included), older folks who feel that anything after "their time" is worth a listen seem few and far between. So, it's very cool to hear that!! :D
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (kiramdear) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:51 am

I feel that we tend to become complacent, set in our ways, stop extending further than our comfort zone as we get older, maybe. But if one keeps active, creatively and mentally, it's possible to keep a healthy appetite for the new and exciting things of life.

I'm so impressed with the "kids" like Jake and yourself who bother to learn the music that I grew up with, I feel I owe at least an attempt to meet young folks halfway.

I only wish I'd caught up with N sooner, and that they'd come along sooner, maybe right at the end of the early punk scene of the seventies and maybe provided some historical momentum there. We might not have had to endure so much dreck on the radio in the interim :lol:
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Re: I don't normally do this kind of thing ...

Postby (Ric O'Sound) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:03 am

collin wrote:Anyways, I enjoy a healthy discussion too. I think I even know that changing someone's opinion is basically impossible, in fact it's usually harder because their defenses come up. In any case, maybe I'm sick....but I enjoy talking about it- I get to defend a band I love, and that strangely makes me happy :wink:
Hope no offense taken!


No offense taken at all, Collin. You were just making your point and underlining the fact that Kurt & Co. had a large influence on you and were part of the reason you got into guitar playing. I may not like their songs much, but I certainly can't deny the fact that Nirvana inspired many young people to start picking up an instrument. That can only be seen as positive. And, no, I don't believe you're "sick". You're just passionate about the music you like. Nothing sick about that.

collin wrote:Ps...about Glam metal---the stuff that 90s alternative bands helped get rid off was more like the ugly tail-end of the whole glam scene. If T.Rex and Slade were the cool beginnings- George Lynch, Warrant, and Cinderalla were the unmentionable end to it all. IMO, when people make fun of it, it was likely because at that point the whole "shtick" of it had gotten so ridiculous and over-the-top, to a laughable point. I think it's something that happens in all great art.


Well, even I admitted in my earlier post that things started spiraling out of control at the tail end of the decade. Yes, the "shtick" had passed its "best when used before" date, but my point was that if you ignore the look and judge the music on its own merits, you'll find there are a lot of great songs and inspiring performances delivered by talented bands who today, simply because of their looks back then, get very little respect. It's almost become a sport to bash 80's metal, it seems. But I guess it shouldn't surprise me on a Rickenbacker forum...Ricks weren't exactly the quintessential hair metal axe.

When I think back on how hard all of us in the band had to practice a lot of that material in order to pull it off live (we did 50/50 covers and originals) and how we all dedicated endless hours to honing our vocal chops in order to nail 4 and 5 part harmonies perfectly (without the benefits of an Eventide or a VoiceWorks Pro like bands have at their disposal today), I realize that I'm a better musician for having performed this type of music. And then I regularly read here how it all gets dismissed as garbage. I just find it a bit disrespectful and believe these statements are made by people who've never had to perform this kind of music live on stage, where you only get one chance to get it right and there's no Copy/Paste button on the guitar to fix your mistakes like in Pro Tools or Sonar.
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