Making demo recordings - WHAT's THE BEST WAY?

dougp · Post by **dougp** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:24 pm

For the purposes described here, I'd make two recommendations:

1) Keep down the number of microphones; unless they're well-placed, one is the optimal number.

2) Recording an entire band with one or two room microphones, you'll have much better results using a condensor mic than a dynamic one (SM57/58, D880, etc.). Dynamic mics are great for close-micing of singers, individual drums, speaker cabinets etc., but don't capture the full sound in a room (or, say, a full drumkit) very well. (The disadvantage is that condensor mics require phantom power, which isn't generally provided by portastudios and the like.)

At least those have worked well for me. For my purposes, I use the following setup (which is dependent partially on the configuration of the instruments in the room):

AT4033 (cardioid large-diaphragm condensor) pointed vaguely at the guitar amp, with the drumkit to the side (so that it picks up more guitar than drums, evening out the levels between two instruments)
&
AKG 414 (P48 version, multi-pattern LD condensor) in hypercardioid mode, pointed at bass & keyboard amps (which are next to each other), with the drumkit to the rear, offset a bit so the mic doesn't pick up the air directly out of the kick drum.

Both go through decent preamps (70s/80s Tascam M5 board) straight to cassette (recording directly to digital doesn't work for this band since no matter where I set the levels, the drummer *always* hits hard enough to go into the red).

As Dean correctly states, mic placement (especially with condensors) is critical, and can affect the sound more than the quality of your mics, recorder, or other outboard gear.

dean712 · Post by **dean712** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:47 pm

Doug - you are right on.

I like your idea of keeping the number of microphones minimized, becaue each additional mic adds to the complexity. However, I would always recommend at least 2 mics for basic rehearsal playback, as you can always (if nothing else) adjust the blend of L/R on the playback device (depending, of course, on how they are panned).

Regarding the drummer always hitting Red... that is actually one of the plusses of my including the Tape Deck in the signal chain and using it's gain in the signal.... If one original source (ie. drums) is overly loud, I could bump the tape deck record volume down.... There's a lot to vary and experiment with in this area, certainly....

And, you're correct in emphasizing... mic placement is everything!

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:24 pm

I have a CDR coming like this one:

so with the mixer (pictured at top of thread) I'll soon be making new demo recordings directly to cd (hopefully).

>>>you'll have much better results using a condensor mic than a dynamic one

ahhhhh, now THAT is veeery interesting. Why is that? Can you explain the differences?

I've always had good luck with AKG and 3 of the 4 mics in the band are AKG 880's. On ebay I see these AKG condensor mics:

which are AKG C1000 (a pair), C2000B, and C3000B.

It looks like the C1000 has a smaller diaphragm than the others. Any other recommendations? These puppies can be had for around $100 each and I dont want to spend much more than that (which is sure easy to do for the higher end mics).

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:03 pm

For instance, for $99 you can get one of these.... do these specs look good? ... bad?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7329280893&fromMakeTrack=true

Audio Technics AT2020 Specifications :

Element Signal to Noise Ratio
Condenser
74 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa

Polar Pattern Dynamic Range (Typical)
Cardioid
124 dB, 1 kHz at Max. SPL

Frequency Response Phantom Power Requirements
20 - 20,000 Hz
48V DC, 2 mA typical

Open Circuit Sensitivity Noise
-37 dB (14.1 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa
20 dB SPL

Impedance Weight
100 ohms
12.1 oz (345 g)

Maximum Input Sound Level Output Connector
144 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D.
Integral 3-pin XLRM-type

Includes FREE:

20 Foot XLR to XLR Microphone Cable
On Stage MS7701B Boom Microphone Stand, the MS7701B tripod stand is a fully adjustable black boom microphone stand.

revolver · Post by **revolver** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:06 pm

Difference between condenser & dynamic? Check out
http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip1.htm

The AT 2020 is a good starter condenser. I have had the opportunity to test two cheap chinese U87 knock offs (Apex $99-140 CDN & Marshall Electronics $120) with a vintage Neumann U87 ($2500+). They are very similar sounding microphones. The knock offs definately share the warm and round characteristics of a U87. The big difference was the noise floor, dead silent with the U87 but very audible with the Apex & Marshall.
The U87 had a tighter polar pattern than the knockoffs and stayed very clean the closer you moved to it whereas the Apex and Marshall would break up with closer proximity.

That being said, there is a dramatic price difference, $99?! Talk about bang for buck! I'd buy two AT2020's and record everything in stereo!

(keep in mind you'll need a mixer or mic pre with phantom power!)

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:45 pm

>>>>keep in mind you'll need a mixer or mic pre with phantom power!

thanks Dave... yea, I was thinking of getting two AT2020's and plugging them into the little Peavey mixer (shown at top of this thread). Will that guarantee me this "phantom power" I've been hearing about?

JDSOUND is currently running a special on the AT2020. Same price ($99) but they throw in a 20' cable and a cheapy boom stand... not a bad deal. I've been trying to contact them with my question on phantom power but I cant get a live person on the line and the've not returned my call.

http://www.jdsound.com

revolver · Post by **revolver** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:34 am

I looked at the Peavey specs on the SamAsh website and it says the first four inputs have Phantom Power. So it looks like you're good to go!

Basically condenser mics require 48 volts to operate. Some have their own power supply (U47, U67). Most condensers get their 48v from the mixer's mic pre-amp. As the 48v is coming from an outside source they call it "phantom power". Traditionally only professional consoles offered phantom power, but now even cheaper semi-pro models (Peavey, Mackie) have it.

There's usually a switch close to the mixer's mic input or on the channel strip. Make sure to plug in the mic before you turn on the phantom power (and ofcourse turn off before you unplug).

If you do accidently unplug it before turning off the phantom or plug it in with the phantom on, don't sweat it! Just get into the good habit of turning it on/off.

In most cases the 48v won't hurt a dynamic mic (57, 58 etc). So if you're using one and forget that you left the phantom power on you're okay, but again, get into the habit of turning it off.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:34 am

Talking of Phantom power.....make sure your mic cables are wired correctly. It is amazing how many cables are accidently wired out of phase (with the live & 'neutral' swapped at one end). You probably wouldn't notice on a dynamic mic, but the noise will be horrific when passing phantom power down it!

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:42 am

otay, thanks mucho..... There are tons of places selling that mic for $99 and it seems to have gotten pretty good reviews (bang for the buck comments). The boom and cable that JDSOUND offers with the mic make it a good deal.

revolver · Post by **revolver** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:49 am

No worries Kent! Good luck. If you have any other questions just let me know, it's what I do for a living.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:30 pm

I ordered the two AT2020 mics today. Sometime next week I should have my little system of carotoid mics, mixer and cd burner together.... fingers crossed.

I'll need to put them in some sort of travel case. This would be the size of a small suitcase and the best design would be for the cover to be the total height so that when the cover comes completely off all that you're left with is a flat bottom with no sides to get in the way. Anyone know of something like that or a source for audio-style cases? (preferably not expensive)

I'll post pix of the "system" if it all works. If it doesn't work I'll post a picture of me thrashing my head against a wall.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:15 pm

Dang.... I bought that Peavey PV-8 mixer on ebay but didn't look carefully enough to realize that it didn't come with it's power supply. (I contacted the seller and he doesn't have one)

What I need is a 16 Volt AC (or 16.5), 1 amp transformer..... I've been here and there and called all over but nobody seems to have this item (it's a little bit of an oddball). I've also contacted my local Peavey dealer and they are STILL waiting to hear back from Peavey about the part (Peavey part number 00710160).

As this is the only thing holding me up from testing my new portable recording studio, I'm beside myself with frustration ... oh, the horror!

Anyone have any suggestions?

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:19 pm

oh yea.. one more thing. The mic stand that JDSOUND sells as a package with the AT2020 mic is nice, but the mount threads are not compatible with the threads on the mic holder. JDSOUND has not responded to my emails. I guess I'll just have to make my own little adapter.

It ALWAYS 'something', eh?