I haven't recorded direct yet because in experimenting with it in the past, it sounded lousy to my ears, and I'm a tube fiend anyway. So I always mic up cabinets but have yet to get a really nice, deep and thunderous bass tone. I get decent bass tones, comparable to late 60's or early 70's stuff, but nothing that still has clarity on the top end but comes out and makes the room shake like a lot of modern stuff. I wonder if its because so many modern players are using solid state amps instead of tube bass amps?
I've used an Ampeg Portaflex reissue, an early 80's SVT with a 8x10 style cabinet, but with 4 10s and 1 15 in it, and I've used a Sunn 200S with the 2x15 and a 1x15 cabinet too. Everything has been done with a Ric bass, and I mic'd the 10's sometimes in the past with a SM57, but I usually use a D112 or an RE20 or something like that on everything else. I tend to play with the amp louder rather than softer too, and wonder if it would work better to mic two amps, with one set up loud to get a good room sound, and the other set up very quiet to get a better bottom end, and mic and combine the two at mixdown? Or maybe go direct with one and add that in at mixdown also? Or get a solid state amp to get some low end punch that the tube stuff rolls off?
Anthony, are you saying that most professionals that you have worked with still use tube bass gear in the studio?
More recording tips needed
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rhampshire
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tony_carey
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Greg, I can't understand why you can't get the bottom end you are after, but I would suggest that perhaps the problem might not be in your bass sound, but in your final track EQ & mastering. Mastering is vital to the final sound that you hear & remember that EVERY released album or single has benefitted from mastering, which often helps the bottom end quite considerably. I'm not saying that this is the problem, but it could be. Many tracks, even from big studios, can sound really quite ordinary before mastering.
A 4x10 cabinet will generally give you more punch than a 15" speaker. An SM57 won't have the frequency range to handle the job, so try a D112 on a 10" speaker & a 57 on the same speaker & mix the two. Or try a d112 on a 15" speaker & another D112 on a 10" speaker. Both these options would give you a punchy bass sound, but one with a little more 'looseness'in the bottom end. I would also add that the right compression on the bass track will add plenty of punch...a little on recording & the rest on mixdown. Keep working on it Greg, as I'm sure that with your obvious talent for this sort of thing, you will sort it. Let us know how you get on.
In my experience, bassists use both valve & solid state...& some use a mixture, like some of the Ampeg gear etc, but valve is still King to most professionals.
I'm really glad that you are enjoying the topic Dean.
A 4x10 cabinet will generally give you more punch than a 15" speaker. An SM57 won't have the frequency range to handle the job, so try a D112 on a 10" speaker & a 57 on the same speaker & mix the two. Or try a d112 on a 15" speaker & another D112 on a 10" speaker. Both these options would give you a punchy bass sound, but one with a little more 'looseness'in the bottom end. I would also add that the right compression on the bass track will add plenty of punch...a little on recording & the rest on mixdown. Keep working on it Greg, as I'm sure that with your obvious talent for this sort of thing, you will sort it. Let us know how you get on.
In my experience, bassists use both valve & solid state...& some use a mixture, like some of the Ampeg gear etc, but valve is still King to most professionals.
I'm really glad that you are enjoying the topic Dean.
'Rickenbacker'...what a name! After all these years, it still thrills me.
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soundmasterg
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Anthony, thanks for the elaboration.
It is kind of hard to describe, as far as the low end I'm looking for and not getting. My engineer/recording class teacher friend suggested that you get a more punchy and present low end if the amp is clean, rather than overdriven. This was in a specific reference to the first song I ever recorded professionally as the engineer when we were trying to mix it, and there was masking going on between various tracks due to my inexperience when micing the instruments and EQ'ing. The bass used was a RIC 4001, and the amp was an Ampeg Portaflex reissue, set up to overdrive a bit. I also used quiet a bit of compresion on it going to tape with a Urei 1776 (I think thats the model) compressor. The bass sounded good alone, but when mixed in with other tracks, it got buried in the mix. Now that I think back on it, it was probably over-compressed and the EQ wasn't good either since I EQ'd it before going to tape. We've since rerecorded it using two Supro Thunderbolts that were set up clean for one and overdriven for the other, and we'll mix them in proportion when we get back to mixing that song. I haven't heard yet how it sounds except for that day in the studio.
I guess I'm aiming for a warm and deep sound, but still having a little aggressive crunch there too. Often I can hear a bass sound that was recorded on solid state, such as stuff from Flea for example, and it sounds good, and has lots of lows and highs, but the mids seem thin and uninteresting. Then you compare with say Paul McCartney's bass sound, which is thick in the mids and warm overall, but maybe not as present and immediate on the low end. I'd like a combination of the two, with a tight low end, yet nice mids and highs also, and a hint of overdrive. I'm beginning to think that maybe I need to record direct, and also mic'd with a clean and dirty tone through two different amps at the same time, and combine all 3 sounds when mixing?
Nice to hear the pros still like the tubes/valves like I do! What amps do most use over there in the UK in the studio? Old Marshalls or Vox? Or American stuff like Ampeg Portaflex, SVT, V4B, Sunn, or Fender?
It is kind of hard to describe, as far as the low end I'm looking for and not getting. My engineer/recording class teacher friend suggested that you get a more punchy and present low end if the amp is clean, rather than overdriven. This was in a specific reference to the first song I ever recorded professionally as the engineer when we were trying to mix it, and there was masking going on between various tracks due to my inexperience when micing the instruments and EQ'ing. The bass used was a RIC 4001, and the amp was an Ampeg Portaflex reissue, set up to overdrive a bit. I also used quiet a bit of compresion on it going to tape with a Urei 1776 (I think thats the model) compressor. The bass sounded good alone, but when mixed in with other tracks, it got buried in the mix. Now that I think back on it, it was probably over-compressed and the EQ wasn't good either since I EQ'd it before going to tape. We've since rerecorded it using two Supro Thunderbolts that were set up clean for one and overdriven for the other, and we'll mix them in proportion when we get back to mixing that song. I haven't heard yet how it sounds except for that day in the studio.
I guess I'm aiming for a warm and deep sound, but still having a little aggressive crunch there too. Often I can hear a bass sound that was recorded on solid state, such as stuff from Flea for example, and it sounds good, and has lots of lows and highs, but the mids seem thin and uninteresting. Then you compare with say Paul McCartney's bass sound, which is thick in the mids and warm overall, but maybe not as present and immediate on the low end. I'd like a combination of the two, with a tight low end, yet nice mids and highs also, and a hint of overdrive. I'm beginning to think that maybe I need to record direct, and also mic'd with a clean and dirty tone through two different amps at the same time, and combine all 3 sounds when mixing?
Nice to hear the pros still like the tubes/valves like I do! What amps do most use over there in the UK in the studio? Old Marshalls or Vox? Or American stuff like Ampeg Portaflex, SVT, V4B, Sunn, or Fender?
Though it can be theoretically different with every session, my method of recording bass guitar is pretty much the same 90% of the time.
I track bass direct into one of a handful of mic preamps that have an instrument input. Some of my favorites here are the Groove Tubes ViPRE (or it's little brother The Brick), Trident S40 with a little compression, Vintech X73, Universal Audio 6176 with a little compression, BLUE Robbie, and Manley VOXBOX. To each his own with choice of preamp, though. Those are just my personal favorites.
Then, during mixdown or downtime or what have you, I reamp the direct tracks to a bass amp and mic the cabinet. If I used a FET preamp, I go into a tube amp for the reamp, and vice-versa. 10" speakers, I typically use an Electro-Voice RE20, 15" speakers get a Soundelux E47 or Audio-Technica AT4033. A combination of dynamic and condenser mics is common for me, too.
Now I've got two tracks with the same performance, but different tones. Move some faders up and down until I get a killer blend of the two, and BINGO! You've got a killer bass track.
I track bass direct into one of a handful of mic preamps that have an instrument input. Some of my favorites here are the Groove Tubes ViPRE (or it's little brother The Brick), Trident S40 with a little compression, Vintech X73, Universal Audio 6176 with a little compression, BLUE Robbie, and Manley VOXBOX. To each his own with choice of preamp, though. Those are just my personal favorites.
Then, during mixdown or downtime or what have you, I reamp the direct tracks to a bass amp and mic the cabinet. If I used a FET preamp, I go into a tube amp for the reamp, and vice-versa. 10" speakers, I typically use an Electro-Voice RE20, 15" speakers get a Soundelux E47 or Audio-Technica AT4033. A combination of dynamic and condenser mics is common for me, too.
Now I've got two tracks with the same performance, but different tones. Move some faders up and down until I get a killer blend of the two, and BINGO! You've got a killer bass track.