More recording tips needed

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:33 pm

I'm sure there is someone here that would be willing to lend you a 4005!

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:00 pm

Regarding having the speaker connected or not: you should be safe either way. If you keep the speaker on, then you can just sit there and listen to what you're playing while what goes to the board is not actually the sound coming from the speaker. The only thing to beware is that, in this case, what goes to the board WILL NOT sound the same as what you hear from the speaker, so you should set your tone listening through headphones instead of the to the speaker. I made that mistake when trying to record myself; I set the tone so that it sounded awesome through the speaker, but when I was listening to it as I recorded direct from the XLR jack, it was very different . . . much less boomy and enveloping the way I had it set.

It's probably just less of a hassle to keep the speaker off, go direct from the XLR jack on the amp, and listen through headphones. If they're decent headphones, you'll be hearing pretty much what's being recorded.

Also, make sure that your volume and gain are adjusted appropriately for recording direct. If I was going to mic my speaker, I would turn my volume up a little over halfway, but when I'm just going throught the amp and not the speaker, perfect volume is about at a quarter of the way up or so. You don't want to accidentally send a deafening signal to the board.

As far as gain goes, I use it as a natural overdrive/presence-type knob. That way, unless I need heavy distortion or something of that sort, I don't need to hook up any pedals. I'm really, really impressed with how good it sounds just plugged directly from the XLR jack. I don't think I'll ever mic a cab ever again. Now if only I could convince the guys at the college recording studio to do the same . . .

dean712 · Post by **dean712** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:58 pm

Thanks, I'm going to try the XLR direct method. I hope it works for us - it would be very cool if it works out.

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:05 pm

Let me know how it goes!

rhampshire · Post by **rhampshire** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:15 am

FYI - you should NEVER run a tube amp without a speaker or dummy load connected. You could fry the output transformer, power tubes, or both!

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 am

I just did a demo recording by going into a Sansamp with blend and drive on about 50%, this fed into my Ashdown ABM 500 head and that went into an Ashdown 2x10 cab. The recording was made from the DI out on the Ashdown.

This is about as Ricky a sound as I have ever got, including back in 1974 when I was recording using a 4001, Hiwatt 100 watt head into a miked up Hiwatt 2 x 15 cab.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:24 am

I record a 4003 on almost a dayley basis. I record it straight to hard disc through a Joe Meek VC1, using slight compression. Then, later I will mic a cab & put it through a valve amp to get the exact sound I want. The advantage to this is that you can do any editing before you run it through the amp & you can try sounds out, before commiting your killer take using a sound that wont fit....especially if you're looking for a different sound to your normal. The disadvantage is that some players need to hear the sound to 'get off' on it.

Bass is an instrument that commonly needs pretty heavy compression in the studio & I use a Drawmer normaly for bass (it seems to suit it very nicely). A short release & an open attack, coupled with very careful input gain monitoring & you should get a pretty decent bass compression with most compressors.

shinynewtoy · Post by **shinynewtoy** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:59 am

That's me... I need to hear my tone as I play. It's a shame because the possibilities are so endless... using a miked tube amp as essentially an effects loop is a phenomenal concept.

dean712 · Post by **dean712** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:55 pm

Rob wrote:

"FYI - you should NEVER run a tube amp without a speaker or dummy load connected. You could fry the output transformer, power tubes, or both!"

That was the other question I had (and probably didn't articulate well when I typed it). When I was wondering about using my Ampeg V-4b tube head to record direct, I was wondering about whether powering it up without speakers connected could damage it. The Owner's Manual says "Always keep the total impedance at or above the rated load." In plain English, does that mean that you're not supposed to run it without a speaker connected? That would jive with Rob's post, which makes sense. Sorry if this is ultra basic, but I'm learning.... I've always just run the rig for live shows, not recording, with the speaker cabs I bought with it, which are 2 8-ohm cabs for a total impedance of 4 ohms, which matches the head's specs.

Also, what is the dummy load Rob referred to? (probably setting up for a good one-liner, but if anyone can answer it too, that would be helpful).

If I can get a good tone recording direct out of the head itself without any audible volume in the control room, it would speed up our studio time by potentially allowing a bass track without isolating the speakers. Of course, I'm interested in getting the best tone possible, too, so I'm trying to be open-minded about all options.

I haven't tried the XLR out for recording yet, but would like to. I've been experimenting with the BassPOD to this point....

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:55 pm

A tube amp needs a load on the output transformer or the transformer can arc internally, and your tubes can also arc, especially when you put a signal into the amp. Needless to say, thats not something you would want to do because at the very least, it would cost several hundred to fix if the transformer or tubes arc. You can safelt run an 8 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm load, and the result will be a compressed and distorted sound....good for lead guitar, but not for bass. Its easier on your tubes to mismatch this way too than to go the other way. (2 ohm speaker on a 4 ohm load) Mismatching up CAN be a problem though when a small output transformer is used, (not a problem in yoru case) and/or when the amp uses very high plate voltages. (could be a problem in your case) Best advice.....ALWAYS run the amp with the proper 4 ohm load on it.

A dummy load is a very large resistor that you can hook up in place of a speaker. It will take all the amp's power output and dissipate it as heat, so they get very hot. Technicians use them when testing so they don't have to listen to test tones though a speaker. The bias should also be set ideally when the amp is hooked to a dummy load because a speaker is a reactive component, and its response changes with frequency, so a resistor load is more accurate when setting the bias. The non-reactive part is also the reason why it wouldn't sound as good to be recorded while hooked to a dummy load, because the resistor, being non-reactive will not allow your amp to perform as normal if you are trying to play through it. It would work but it wouldn't sound as good as with a speaker.

I would suggest to split your signal going into the amp and send one direct, and the other through the amp, and either isolate the speaker, play at a really low volume, or put the cabinet outside the recording environment and use a long speaker cord to keep the head still hooked up to the cabinet. You get a cleaner and punchier sound when the amp isn't being overdriven anyway, and it usually fits into the track better when it is clean and not overdriven. Going direct can give you all the punch and deep bottom that you need, and the recorded sound from the amp can fill out the sound and make it warmer, especially when a tube amp is used. The XLR out could also be used to send the signal direct, although it would be going through the amp first to do so, so it wouldn't be as clean as going direct from the bass.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:43 am

Many Mesa/Boogie amps have a "recording" switch which disconnects the signal to the phase inverter tube to allow using the line out without have the need for a speaker to be connected. I'm sure this would be a simple mod to do to the V-4b.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:56 am

The sound of the amp is only half the story, with the speakers being the other half. Using an amp like that is using it solely as a pre amp & you will get none of the speaker characteristics. You will get a good sound that way, but I have yet to hear a DI'd sound that was as good as a fully Mic'd cabinet. It does depend on your cab though & as always...the better cabs sound better, even though you are only mic'ing one of the speakers.

In fairness, I am being a little elitest on this, as you can get great sounds by simple DI'ing. On my Carnivores album, I used the method as in my earlier post, but one song escaped the re-mic'ing. You can hear the difference, but only if you listen.

I believe that if you are an engineer though, then it is your duty to get the VERY best sound you can & this is often all in the details. If you can make every sound just 10% better, then on a multi track project, this can be very significant & makes the difference between a demo & a master. In a world full of musicians & bands, nothing shines more than a pro recording, especially if you are sending it out to the industry.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:12 pm

Anthony, in your experience, to get a real nice, full and rich bass sound, does it work better with an amp (tube or solid state), or when going direct? As an example, I would say most of the modern recorded bass sounds as compared to the vintage 60's and 70's stuff we all know and love, which sound good, but don't have that deep bottom end that a lot of stuff has nowadays. An engineer I've worked with is always recommending to go direct instead of micing up a cabinet because he says it will give better bottom end.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:56 pm

"An engineer I've worked with is always recommending to go direct instead of micing up a cabinet because he says it will give better bottom end."

Greg, I have no wish what so ever to go head to head with anyone on this, let alone another engineer, but I just can't agree with that. I cannot understand the reasoning behind it. I CAN understand the reluctance of engineers to mic cabs, as the direct route is a very easy. hassle free solution, but by going the extra mile, you WILL get a better sound. Like I said in my last post, you can achieve wonderful results by the DI method & I am not decrying it, I use it myself when producing demos...but if it's masters we're after, then it's a mic'd valve amp through a 4x12, 2x15 or 4x10 bass cab & the results ARE better. There is certainly no loss of clarity or bottom end. A combination of mics, but normally something as simple as a single AKG D112 does the job. A lot of the 'punch' of a recorded bass is a result of the right kind of compression & this is vital, no matter how it is recorded.

In the studios that I have worked in that actually produce the music that we listen to on a dayly basis, the bass is mic'd. I am sure that a famous player, somewhere uses a DI method of recording with a tried & tested method, but generally, the bass is mic'd. All you have to do is try it & use your own ears to judge. The only 'goalposts' are, use a good quality amp & cabinet & a mic that is fit for the job (an SM58 wont do bass!). You will find the mic'd sound has more tone to it & is much more 'believable'.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

If you want to record direct, but hear your tone while playing, I suggest splitting the signal, and record it direct, while listening to it through the amp. I do this with my vocals. My mic pre-amp has two outputs, one 1/4" and one XLR. I record the XLR direct into my machine. I run the 1/4" through a reverb unit, and run that into my machine also. I listen to the "wet" version while I sing, while both the wet and dry version are being recorded. This was a breakthrough for me, in my quest to make my vocals the best they can be.