Beatles Selmer Truvoice amp

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Fri Oct 13, 2000 5:44 pm

OK Larry, if you can answer this one I'll be much in your debt as I've been searching for the answer for a year now for the Selmer website ( Selmer Website ).

The Beatles used a red/cream Selmer Truvoice amp from around the time of their first Hamburg trip till 1962 : it was, I think, originally the property of Liverpool Art College. Was it, as is popularly supposed, the Stadium model, or the very similar Auditorium ? They're almost identical apart from the control panel : the Stadium has tremelo so 6 control pots, the Auditorium just 3, and I can't find a pic showing the control panel.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:59 pm

Hello Tim, Great web-site you have! The Beatles
did get the Liverpool Art College to buy them their first amp and it was a Selmer Truvoice Stadium. It's in a lot of photos from the early days which is my favorite period. It differs in looks from the Auditorium in that the top of the amp slants downward at the back and the Auditorium stays straight across on the top. The confusing thing here though is, they also used an
Auditorium for one night for certain. According to Lewisohn, that would have been the night of
August 19, 1961. If you have The Complete Beatles
Chronicle, on page 45 there is a great photo of The Beatles at the Aintree Institute playing through the Auditorium. Perhaps their Stadium was in for repairs and they borrowed this amp? On page 50 you can see them with the Stadium at
Aldershot, playing for the Aldershot 18. Wish I
could have been there! If you have the new Anthology book, on page 65(lower photo) you can
see their Stadium on stage as The Beatles appear to be setting up after Rory Storm and The Hurricanes' performance. You might have to use a
magnfiying glass, but you can definitely see the slanted back of the Stadium. I did manage to buy a Selmer Truvoice Stadium amplifier which came out of Liverpool about 10 years ago. It sounds awesome, but I know you are definitely aware of that fact. I'm going to head back to your web-site and check out some more great amps.

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:56 am

Larry, the Auditorium had a slanted back like the Stadium, take a look at both models in the red/cream amps section of the website. They were near-identical, the Auditorium being very slightly smaller. The amp with the straight top in the Aug 19 '61 pic is a Selector-Tone Automatic, presumably borrowed for the evening as that seems to be the only pic (I think it's the one in the "Famous Selmer Users" Beatles section). From looking at many pictues I'd be 90% sure their early Selmer was Stadium, but without a clear control panel pic it's difficult to tell for sure.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:52 pm

Hello Tim, Thanks for 'waking me up' on this one.
I did think the Aintree Institute amp looked like
it had the push-button controls, but had it confused with the Auditorium. I shouldn't have done that as I actually owned a very nice Auditorium at one time. I'll be checking every
old photo I have to see if I can come up with a shot of the control panel, although there may not be one. Johnny Guitar from Rory Storm and The Hurricanes was a good friend of mine(he sadly passed away last year from a muscle disease). He did tell me they used two Stadium amps and The Beatles used the same model. Also, it seems the Stadium amps had the name on the front on plexi-glass, but the Auditorium had the name on a metal
plague(across the top). So the plastic was flat,
while the metal had 'raised' letters. I have clear enough photos of The Beatles amp that show it did not have the raised style letters. Although I realize this is not definite proof. Sure hope there is a shot which shows the control panel, I'll let you know what I find out.

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 4:45 pm

Larry, I couldn't find a pic showing the control panel anywhere, which would be conclusive evidence (3 knobs = Auditorium, 6 knobs = Stadium), but I'd put money on it being a Stadium anyway. The TV19 Auditorium was discontinued around 1960, probably the TV19T Stadium was much more popular having tremelo. All the Auditoriums I've seen (which admittedly can be counted on the fingers of one hand) have the early style Truvoice front logo, which was brass, heavily embossed and with the TRUVOICE letters outlined, rather than the later plastic-looking plate (actually thin metal) with solid red letters. All the Stadiums I've seen have the later style logo, but I think Selmer made the change across the range of amps around 1959/1960 so it may be that earlier Stadiums (model introduced in 1958 I think) have the earlier style logo.

Selmers were certainly popular in Liverpool in the late 50's & early 60's - pics in "How They Became The Beatles" show no less than 4 on stage at the Liverpool Stadium on 3 May 1960 with Gene Vincent and Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, and another fine selection (probably the same ones) at the Larry Parnes/Billy Fury audition on 10 May. Incidentally, the small PA amps pictured in early Quarrymen pics are almost certainly Selmers but I haven't yet ID'd them.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 7:04 pm

Tim, I haven't found the photo yet, still looking but there may not be one. The Stadium I have has a plastic logo across the top, saying:
T R U V O I C E
Selmer
London England

It is definitely original, and not metal. It is
sort of similar to the way Rickenbacker makes their nameplate, clear plastic with logo silk-screened on and then sprayed gold from behind. I
believe this is the same style that The Beatles
had. Have you seen this style? I thought perhaps
they used this style on the bigger Stadium amp
and the metal style on the Auditorium. I've also
had a much smaller red and creme Selmer amp with
the metal logo.

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 7:24 pm

Larry, they may well have gone from brass to thin metal to plastic, all looking similar : probably better technology or saving money. Selmer continuously changed the cosmetics of their amps, I seldom find any two completely identical. E-mail me at tim.fletcher@virgin.net and we can perhaps exchange jpg's of logos, then share the conclusion with people here.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:47 pm

Larry and Tim: Very interesting discussion. I have a photo of this amplifier taken in August 1960 when the Beatles performed at the Indra Club. I don't think it sheds any additional light with regard to your pursuit, but please let me know if you wish it posted. There is a good clear image of the logo. In speaking with Pete Best, he maintains that it was Paul McCartney's amplifier. Pete may have forgotten, however, that it was used by John and George which is apparent in the photos of which Tim speaks.

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 7:20 am

Peter, I have that picture as wallpaper on my PC, the logo is the later type. I've sent Larry some logo pics and catalogue pics of the Stadium and Auditorium. Probably when they first got to Hamburg the Selmer was used by all 3 as it was the largest amp they had : the Elpico and Watkins were too small for a club, and I'm sure that's why they were replaced by John's Fender and George's Gibson. The Selmer lasted much longer though, and was probably used by Stu then Paul as a bass amp, the Stadium has a wide tonal range and is a good bass amp. I read somewhere that the reason Stu couldn't get back into Liverpool Art College was because the Beatles had absconded with their Selmer !!

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 12:37 pm

Hello Tim and Pete, That would be great if you could post that picture of The Beatles at the Indra Club. That's a classic shot with a good look at the Selmer and Elpico. You can clearly see that John and George are plugged into the Selmer, Paul into his Elpico(which he still has)and Stu is plugged into a Watkins Westminster which was actually owned by Pete Pest(or Mo) and used by groups at the Casbah. This amp is sitting on a chair to the right of Stu in this photo. Pete auctioned this amp off through Sotheby's about 12 years ago, I have a copy of the catalog somewhere. Wish I would have bought it at the time as it didn't go for a lot of money back then. He actually auctioned off the bongos which came with his original white Premier drum kit at around the same time. I agree Tim, that it was necessary to upgrade to the Fender and Gibson amps to be heard in the clubs. The Selmer Stadium would be more than adequate and that's why it would be used until they got into Vox in late '62. That's 2 years of the hardest use imagineable, those Selmers were put together to last! Tim, thanks for sending the photos of the Auditorium and brochure. The Auditorium I had had the same metal nameplate as yours, I do believe The Beatle Selmer had the smooth plastic type. Still searching for a photo showing the control panel, no luck so far. But I won't give up!

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 2:27 pm

Larry, you're a mine of information - I didn't know if the Watkins was a Westminster or a Clubman, both identical from the front but the Westminster has tremelo so the control panel is wider (4 knobs vs 2).

I've talked to people who saw the Beatles in '62 when they had the Fender, Gibson and Selmer and several commented that the amps were completely wrecked at that time : the Selmer was apparently stripped and painted black. My guess is that wrecked amps went well with the leather image, but Epstein made them get better gear when he smartened them up.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 7:51 pm

Tim and Larry: While I appreciate that these photos will not change the outcome of your discussion, I did nonetheless find them interesting after reading your comments. They are photos from the Indra Club in August 1960. The first is of John and George and the TRUVOICE amplifier. I find it interesting that they did both use it at the same time.

The second photo is a closeup of the amplifier and is from the same photo above. In addition to the TRUEVOICE trademark I also find that there is some interesting writing on the front of the amplifier. I won't tell you what I think it is at present, but I would be interested in your comments. I had not noticed this before.

The third photo is simply a magnification of the grill showing the area of the speaker hole. I add this photo to show photo two more closely.

This will let others have an appreciation of some of the information that you had while identifying the model of the TRUVOICE. amplifier.

larrywassgren · Post by **larrywassgren** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:00 pm

Thanks for the compliment Tim, I've just been interested in the early years since 1964. The Beatle magazines I bought back then always had photos from the Hamburg and Cavern days and I always found the pre-fame days most interesting.
I would imagine The Beatles amps were getting pretty beat up by the end of '62. The Beatles were in great demand in '61 and '62 and were playing two and even three shows a day occasionally. So they were 'working' amps and paid their dues for sure. But the Selmer, Fender
and Gibson amps were built for working musicians and could take a lot of punishment. I wonder where those three amps are now? Someone surely must have realized they were Beatle amps and because of their huge popularity around Liverpool in late '62 would have latched on to them. Thanks for posting the great photos Peter. Under
Truvoice it says Selmer, London, England in smaller letters. The control panel on the back
identifies the model as a Stadium, which we're 95%
certain it was. I really like the little V's on
the grill cloth on the front(near the speaker).
They are little, gold plastic attachments which
signify 'sound'. That is a great late 50's touch.
This photo was taken in October of 1960 at the Indra Club. I think it's important to note here that John, Paul and George had been playing together for over 3 years. Although their equipment my have been lacking in some respects, I'm sure they were a much better group than a lot
of people(and books) give them credit for. They were constantly playing guitar and singing together, rock and roll was what they lived for. They could already harmonize and do their Elvis
and Buddy Holly impressions. They had done a small tour of Scotland, and Johnny Gentle has commented in his book that he had already seen the
start of Beatlemania by the end of that tour. The girls were screaming for The Beatle more than
Johnny. But the 3 months they spent in Hamburg at
the end of 1960 took what they already had and really made it a tight rock and roll band. Nobody else could touch them in Hamburg and Liverpool. I better go look for that Stadium control panel shot!

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Oct 16, 2000 4:09 am

Larry: What I think I see on the grill of the TRUVOICE is the initials J L. Beyond that is either a stain or some marking in the bottom left quadrant of the speaker hole. So it this just my imagination?

Tim_Fletcher · Post by **Tim_Fletcher** » Mon Oct 16, 2000 4:52 am

Maybe they traded their old amps in for their new Vox amps, in which case the old ones may have disappeared into obscurity. I would think that they would have surfaced by now at auction if they still exist, unless a collector has them tucked away somewhere.

The little "flying V's" on red/cream Selmers seem to have been copied from US Magnatone amps.

I'd love to get a bunch of musicians together with the exact gear in that photo and see what sounds emerge - pretty good ones I should think.

Peter, I think what you're seeing may be a trick of the light on the photo, but later I'll have a look at a good copy which I don't have by me now.