Lets talk about horseys

Vintage, Modern, V & C series, Fretless, Signature & Special Editions

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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Wiker) » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:56 am

Here is a photo of the original bobbin from my V63 RIHS with the tape removed. The inner end of the copper thread is connected to the red lead out wire from the bottom of the bobbin. The outer end of the copper thread is soldered to the black lead out wire. Measure resistance between the two lead out wires. I believe a new RIHS will be somewhere around 10.5K - 11.0K.

Snap the copper thread off the black lead out wire. Wrap the thread off the bobbin onto your hand – pretty fast when you get the hang of it. You’ll have to stop now and then and measure the resistance. Simplest way to take a measure is to wrap the end of the copper thread a few times around the solder end of the black lead out wire, and solder it. (The coating on most copper coil threads will melt by the hot solder.) Keep unwrapping and measuring until you are close to 8K.

Original bobbin from my V63 RIHS, which I unwound to 8.2K:
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Captain Bob) » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:27 am

FWIW.....Keep in mind when measuring resistance, the output will vary with temperature.

My 2 year old + Lollar HS (they are $600.00 by the way) I placed in my Snowglo is 7.58k, The RIC RIHS I once had 10.88k, and the Sergio rebuilt bobbin HS (with the lip) and '63 shoes that resides in my '64 4001S, is 7.02k.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Boogie) » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:03 pm

Dane's idea of underwinding a RIC RIHS in interesting. If that '60s RM tone could be acheived this way, that would certainly help my wallet.

Lollar's HS looks really nice. One of my guitars has Lollar PUs installed and I have no doubt his products are excellent. But at $600 a pop, I could use the money to buy a RIC RIHS and a Fender Rumble 100 v3 amp....

The RIHS don't have magnetized HS. Is this why the reading on a RIHS should be at around 8.0k unwound, which is higher than the Lollar HS or rebuilt HS with real magnetized HS?
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (squirebass) » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:08 pm

Cool! Thanks for that, Geir!
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Wiker) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:05 am

Boogie wrote:The RIHS don't have magnetized HS. Is this why the reading on a RIHS should be at around 8.0k unwound, which is higher than the Lollar HS or rebuilt HS with real magnetized HS?

When I unwound my RIHS years ago, I wanted it to match the scatter wound Toaster. The toaster and RIHS are constructed the same way with alnico rods as pole pieces, so I thought it was a good idea to have approximately the same number of turns on both in order for the RIHS to match the toaster in output. I cannot remember how I came up with 8.2K back then.

For some reason I have thought the RIHS bobbin to be larger than the toaster bobbin. I wound up a toaster and a RIHS bobbin a few days ago (I should have measured the bobbin cores when I had the chance, but I didn’t think of it) with 6500 turns of AWG43 on both, and both ended up with 6.7K. So I guess the two cores are equal in size.

So, if one wants to match the number of turns on both pickups (toaster and RIHS), unwind the RIHS to the same resistance as the toaster.

Current Lollar HS have resistance readings slightly less than a toaster, about 7K (+/-) if I remember correctly. Due to the construction being different (pole screws instead of large alnico rods), the core of Lollar’s HS bobbin is probably a little bit smaller than the toaster. With 7K of AWG44 on Lollar’s bobbin, I guess it has close to 5500 turns on it.

Don’t know how many turns of wire that will bring the RIHS closest (soundwize) to a real HS, but 5500 turns might be a good start.


For reference if someone should have any use for it, here is my table of resistance estimates (based on unwinding and counting turns, and my own winding) that should be valid for both the toaster and RIHS bobbin (estimates are not 100% correct, but close enough).

number of turns with AWG 44:
5500 => 7.18K
6000 => 7.84K
6500 => 8.49K
7000 => 9.14K
7500 => 9.79K
8000 => 10.45K
8500 => 11.10K
9000 => 11.75K

number of turns with AWG 43:
5500 => 5.70K
6000 => 6.21K
6500 => 6.73K
7000 => 7.25K
7500 => 7.77K
8000 => 8.29K

Btw, my resistance measures are at temperature 20C.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (squirebass) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:28 am

So, is it pretty much agreed that unwinding the RIHS to about 8.2 gets one right in the neighborhood of a vintage horsey? :shock:
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (jps) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:10 pm

squirebass wrote:So, is it pretty much agreed that unwinding the RIHS to about 8.2 gets one right in the neighborhood of a vintage horsey? :shock:

I suppose one would have to make an actual, played in a bass, comparison to really know that answer.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Kopfjaeger) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:11 pm

8.4k ohms on my 1965.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Kopfjaeger) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:43 pm

jps wrote:
squirebass wrote:So, is it pretty much agreed that unwinding the RIHS to about 8.2 gets one right in the neighborhood of a vintage horsey? :shock:

I suppose one would have to make an actual, played in a bass, comparison to really know that answer.


Jeff, agreed. I'm sure it if it was as easy as the number of winds on a bobbin, Every manufacturer could offer a vintage Rickenbacker sound.

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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (jps) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Kopfjaeger wrote:
jps wrote:
squirebass wrote:So, is it pretty much agreed that unwinding the RIHS to about 8.2 gets one right in the neighborhood of a vintage horsey? :shock:

I suppose one would have to make an actual, played in a bass, comparison to really know that answer.


Jeff, agreed. I'm sure it if it was as easy as the number of winds on a bobbin, Every manufacturer could offer a vintage Rickenbacker sound.

Sepp

With that said(!) here are measurements from my '73 4001:

Original toaster - 7.69K Ω
Rebuilt magnetic HS pickup - 4.78K Ω

I do not have the .0047µF cap in line with the HS PU but the two pickups sound fabulous together, or individually, IME&O.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (squirebass) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:40 pm

Well, I felt like the horseys in my v63s got me pretty close, but there were definite sound characteristics that did not match, so maybe a RIHs is the way I want to go... Does anyone have a RIHS(possibly unwound)with the .047 cap?
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (aceonbass) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:57 pm

I feel that the Ohms rating of a pickup is a big part of it's sound, but instrument construction and playing technique are probably just as important. The hi rating on RIHS's is no doubt part of the harshness in this pickup's sound, just as it was with the hot Toasters RIC used to make that many vintage pureists hated. Interestingly enough, the construction of hi-gain pickups is actually more similar to horseshoe pickups than the current RIHS pickups in that you have a bobbin with non-magnetized slugs sitting on top of a magnet. No the magnet doesn't go under and over the strings, but I'll bet the effect is similar. If you listen to the tone that Squire gets on The Yes Album with his hi-gain equipped 21 fretter, I think you'll see what I mean.
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (ram) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:19 pm

I finally have a little time to say something here. I am by no means any kind of a seasoned expert here. I do have one of the original Lollar HS with the magnetic shoes. If I recall correctly it is about 7.0K to 7.5K. What I have noticed is that the magnetic shoes versions seem to be a small amount more micro-phonic than the RIHS… a very small difference that I doubt most would notice. And definitely wouldn’t stick out in the fray during live performances. Unwind and be happy!
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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (Kopfjaeger) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:14 pm

I wish Mark Walker would chime in on this thread. he knows quite a bit of horsies, building, playing, experimenting. I remember a video of his where he spoke about re-charging his magnets on his 68 4001. he did not have a polarity tester but he could tell by ear when he had the poles lined up properly. Mine are positive above the pup and negative below. the tone is a bit different if it's switched. Mark's video was proof of that.

Also, the bobbin in my 72 4001 i9s the same as the one in the Geddy 68 bass. The magnet is the narrow type on the 72 and the 68 was a horsie. They are completely different tone wise. Yes, playing style and instrument construction all factor into the mix it certainly looks like many factors all contribute to the magnetized horsie tone.

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Re: Lets talk about horseys

Postby (squirebass) » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:28 pm

Sepp, I believe you were saying or maybe I read somewhere that lining up the poles on a horseshoe is the biggest part of getting them to play nice.
And Dane, that tone on The Yes Album is pretty much the bomb as far as I'm concerned. I got that album in 1971, before I even played bass, and when I started, it was that pic of Squire with the MG bass inside that started me on this path!
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