Non-Rickenbacker Fretless Basses Sub-Forum

[FretlessOnly]

Hey Scott, congrats! You'll love it, and from what I've read of your experience, you'll have a fun time messing around with set-up. Granted there's a great deal of info on the web now that wasn't around when I was playing upright more actively, but let me offer a couple of things from my experience:

1. Yes, the bass is likely to change considerably with humidity changes. Right now, the strings will be at their lowest and the body at its tightest (and probably sound as bright as it can), In summer, the neck tends to gain relief, the action rises and the sound can get a bit muddier. Plywood likely moves less than carved wood, so you may not see too drastic a change.

2. A properly-cut and fitted soundpost should never drop during normal use. If you re-string one at a time, there's generally sufficient tension to keep the post in place. If you ever do remove all of the strings at once (for example to clean the fingerboard with 0000 steel wool and tung oil), do it while the bass is flat on its back and you may be able to keep the post upright just fine.

3. Consider buying a choice (i.e. better than select or normal grain) soundpost if you need to replace what comes with the bass. It's short money for a better piece, and it's the single most important thing on the bass (well, after strings).

4. When I first got my bass in '92, the soundpost was a bit short, so a slightly longer one was fitted in the summer. The luthier marked the date on the replaced post in case the longer one wouldn't fit in the winter. Later, a second luthier removed just a hair of material on the newer post so that the post has been in place for all seasons for the past 17 years or so (although I've had it moved around; see next item).

5. Placement of the soundpost is critical for two reasons: 1) for proper tone and 2) you can crack the wood under string tension if the post is improperly placed.

to points #1 and #2, classical players generally go for a darker tone, so the post is moved further away (toward the endpin) from the G foot of the bridge. Jazz players generally want more bite and move it closer to the G foot of the bridge. Generally, the post should be on a line with the G foot (a line that runs perpendicular to the bridge top), but never under it - it's always below the G foot closer to the tailpiece. I'm sure there are formulae for calculating these things, but I'm not privvy to them. I do have enough penciled X's on the inside of my bass to know where various sweet spots are, however. Make sure you get the location(s) correct!

6. Consider getting a soundpost adjustment kit like this one: http://www.lemurmusic.com/Double-Bass-S ... nfo/A1379/ although it is a bit pricey for what it is.

7. One of the big keys to the soundpost is how the ends are cut; they need to be bevelled to the shape of the face and back of the bass, and the post has to sit in there just right, or you get **** tone and/or damage.

[iiipopes]

The upright bass got here! The tracking info said Monday delivery, so I went to the trucking dock to get it after work Friday, so it didn't sit in an unheated warehouse all weekend. It came as you imagine: a huge box with very large form-fit styrofoam bats to protect it. It's exactly what I thought it would be. It needs the nut dressed, the fingerboard slightly sanded and polished, and a complete setup, including a bridge trimming. The "flamed maple" back is, of course, more like the mid-'90's Fender "foto-flame," not real flamed maple, but it looks alright. And it even has a bow and gig bag, so I can start learning arco and actually take it to gigs. But for @ $700, it is exactly what I knew I was getting. The same bass, albeit with probably slightly better plywood, will be in shops like Gollihur Music for $1400 or so plus shipping. For those who do not tinker, that is a great bargain for a great playing bass. The extra $700 buys a person all of that setup so it truly is playable out of the box, but not necessarily a bow, even a cheap one.

But since I have the skill at setups, this is a great project for me. The local high school wood shop teacher has a community evening every Thursday, and has helped my son's Cub Scout Pack (before he crossed over to Boy Scouts) cut pinewood derby cars these last few years, so if I run into a snag he has anything I need to do what I need to do and can help me do it if I can't do it here at home. Moreover, the father of one of our Scouts has a furniture-quality home workshop, so I'm set if I need to fashion anything otherwise. And there is a local specialty woodworker store with a very large selection of high-quality exotic woods, so if I need, for example, a small block of ebony to fashion a trim piece or such, I can purchase it locally, and I can pick my wood. This is important, as the bass is @ 41 5/8 scale, although the store specs said 40 5/8 scale (someone fouled up the math), so I'll probably "false nut" an inch down to the scale I need for the spread on my hand, and so I can have a "D" neck instead of an "Eb" neck. Finally, we do have a very good luthier in town who even though his primary duties are keeping school instruments functional, enjoys working on a player project occasionally, and is absolutely proper in his repairs.

I've already redone the strings so they lay properly on the posts, and have done some nut work to get the slots low enough so I can start playing it in the meantime. Thursday I'll take the bridge to the school shop and lower the bridge contour with a pair of marking calipers and a scroll saw, then recontour the bridge face on a sander, and finally renotch it with my rattail file, so I can get the action down to where it needs to be.

Now, make no mistake: it is a cheap Chinese bass, or what is referred to as a "CCB" on the Talkbass forum, with much derision and contempt. Yes, I already see one very small crack that I might have to take a syringe and inject a dab if hide glue and make sure it's stable. But all these details are why the guys on TalkBass consider them not worth the $$, and why I consider them a great project to work on when I'm not playing.

Hey FretlessOnly - thanks for the words about the soundpost. Yes, one has to be very careful of the soundpost. Now, get this: mine actually arrived with the soundpost intact, upright, and generally placed correctly! Of course, I'll fine tune it later for string and tonal balance, but at least it's about where it needs to be to start so I can get going.

The cheap Chinese strings on it are at least of a similar diameter to a lot of top company mittels (it is, of course, traditional to use the German word for middle tension), as measured by my calipers, so they will do for the time being. And I got an extra set in the deal! Because of the nature of upright, unless a person is a terminal tinkerer, most times once a person settles on a string set, unless they are worn out prematurely by such percussive styles as rockabilly slap, they last for a long, long time. Some people, for instance, don't consider a set of Thomastik-Infeld Spirocores settled in until they have been played for months, even years! I'm glad to have the inexpensive strings so I can fine tune the setup before I start investing in "real" strings.

One last item that will need to be replaced: the tailpiece is plastic instead of ebony, and that could crack. With @ 250lbs of tension on it, I don't want to risk an explosive display. So I'll find a good one and fit it as well, as it's all the way down, making the string after length longer than optimal.

[iiipopes]

OK, I'm working through things. The false nut is done. I have Spiro Weich E and A on it, D & G on the way. Bridge is good. There's not quite enough "scoop" in the fingerboard, and I'm getting occasional buzzes. When I get the time, I'll tear everything down and scrape/sand the proper contour into the fingerboard. Unlike Ricks and straight necks, the string length is so long on a DB that even with the increased tension there is a large string excursion, and fingerboards need to have a scoop in them - analogous to the relief that most Fender-style electric basses need. It turns out the tailpiece is anodized aluminum. Even more reason to get rid of it.

Playing started out really hurting from quick fatigue. But being careful, over time I'm working into it. Got the Simandl book so I can take my left hand technique to the next level. Even if a FL player never touches a bow, learning the Simandl positions and the proper techniques of 1-2-4 fingers and shifting up and down and across the neck will take everything up a notch and help a FL player be even that much more accurate. I had learned a very rudimentary version of positions when I was in college so I didn't trip over the jazz band charts, but over the years I had migrated towards a more guitar-like technique playing mostly in garage and bar bands. So getting back to the classical positions is coming back to me really, really quickly and the intonation and phrasing on the charts are smoothing back out nicely. I even have some charts that were a little awkward on electric that with proper positioning are actually easier to play already on the upright.

Next: scoop the fingerboard, get the D & G Spiros on, and sort out the tailpiece. I should then be ready to really focus on the music and work up to performance standard and endurance over the next few months.

In the meantime: the director of a local community band and my Shrine band director, who also plays a horn in the same community band, both called me. Their tuba player is starting to wane at 83 years old, and invited me to be principal tubist. It's great to be wanted. Yes, when I get DB up and running I'll be a triple threat: electric bass, upright bass and tuba. I encourage everyone who plays electric bass, fretted or fretless, who is seriously considering gigging for good $$, to develop a double. My QCDB Independence Day gig this summer wouldn't have been nearly as successful if I had not been able to bring a tuba for the patriotic selections to give the proper foundation the crowd is used to, and the QCDB is really looking forward to my getting the DB together for the traditional swing charts and others as soon as I can.

[Tom Patterson]

My first foray into the fretless adventure began last Friday for a little cash outlay. I picked up this beater Yamaha for $100. It is a pleasure to play and very challenging and rewarding

[jps]

Have fun! I have been playing my newest fretless a lot.

[woodyng]

welcome,Tom! is that an rbx250f? i just bought a used one of those for $150,maybe because it was fretless and ....metallic magenta! on the recommendation of 2 different fl players,i got some tapewounds to put on it,but i have to admit i am really liking the way it sounds with roundwounds. i am afraid i might lose some of the edge and note definition by going to tapes,any opinions out there?

pm sent to joey!

[rickenbrother]

Here's Woody's Yamaha RBX250F Fretless.
Looks hot! Congrats and enjoy it Woody!

[woodyng]

i just changed the strings to Fender nylon tapes,9120 set,and i still need a set up done,but they sound really nice. it was sounding like a combination fretless/sitar,got to remedy that....

[jps]

Raise the action slightly, that should help. Getting the right tone on a fretless is an art and is a combination things, especially, how you touch the strings with your fretting (fretlessing?) hand.

[woodyng]

thanks,Jeff, i'm hoping to have it setup soon. I discovered a while back,with the exception of changing strings,i do not tinker well. i am pretty sure it is going to need a neck tweak ,too. It had some old very very lightweight roto rw's on it-i mean i like light sets,but these were like air...very fast,tho! overall,to be such an inexpensive bass to begin with,i find everything seems to work well,and the pickup sounds decent. one of the things that sold me on this,besides the price,was the weight,6.6 lbs! its almost as light as my danelectro hodad bass.

[ajish4]

Years ago, when I wanted to get back into playing fretless, I bought a ROGUE fretless 4 string. It was embarrassing, I think I paid $90.00 SHIPPED. It had one of those cheapie Ebonol (sp?) fingerboards and was feather light. I NEVER SHOULD HAVE SOLD IT. It sounded great, but alas....'twas black and it drove me insane! It had MAWAH for days but almost no sustain.

I did nothing to it, right out of the box it played well.

[woodyng]

well the price is basically why i got this bass. i had an aria sinsunido fl that i never got on well with,this bass is sort of a stripped down modern version of a p-bass,the body and neck dimensions on it are perfect for me. if i want to upgrade the bridge tuners pickups there are tons of aftermarket parts that will fit. i took it to a practice to try it on maybe one song,ended up playing it for 3 hours,just to see if i could do so without being out of tune. (pleased to say it worked for the most part) I am looking forward to developing my technique on it for certain songs,where i want to hear a really fretless sound.(ie,slides,mwah,et
my fretless heroes would be of course jaco, percy jones,alphonso johnson,and i really like the chap in porcupine tree.

[Tom Patterson]

Thanks Woody,
I did not know what model it is, but having seen yours I now Know!! thanks
I too bought it for the price which is absolutely relative to its condition , there are a few dings that would be best assigned as the result of a claw hammer? ?

It came with round wounds and I'll probablky go with some cheapy flat wounds. Any suggustions anyone??

Tom

[FretlessOnly]

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as cheapie flats. That said, the Fender 9050s are about $20 and the new Fender 9050CLs are all the rage, as they say.

[Tom Patterson]

$20 sounds right, I'll try that
Thank You