Is this an original? 1964 rose morris. $?

[jwilli]

I agree with Collin.

[glen_l]

I noticed a comment about certain Rose Morris guitars being shipping to the UK only. It's not correct because all Rose Morris guitars were shipped from CA to the UK only. From there, they were distributed to various countries in Europe and the daughter company, Rose Music here in Australia.

[8mileshigh]

I agree with Collin.

I agree with Collin too, but disagree with John ...............(yawn)

[k43rover]

I noticed a comment about certain Rose Morris guitars being shipping to the UK only. It's not correct because all Rose Morris guitars were shipped from CA to the UK only. From there, they were distributed to various countries in Europe and the daughter company, Rose Music here in Australia.

I'm not sure why you're so convinced this is wrong Glen. I made a comment above which related purely to Autumnglo guitars being shipped exclusively to Rose Morris in the UK. This is based on the shipping invoice data quoted in Richard Smith's book. In addition to the UK Rose Morris export data he quoted, he had the following to say about other markets:

"Other Rickenbacker exports in 1966 included 25 Model 1998 guitars sent directly to Rose Morris Australia. 27 Model 345S guitars and 2 Model 335S guitars went to Audrea Buari, & Figli in Italy. 25 Model 335S guitars went to Muskantor & Co in Sweden. 25 Model 335S guitars went to Barabash Music Corporation in Canada".

Although a lot of the production total data in Smith's book is known to be inaccurate, AFAIK the export data he quotes including for Rose Morris in the UK and Australia and other markets is correct and based on his direct access to documents from the company's files. However, of course it's possible there were additional exports he wasn't aware of when he wrote the book - only the factory could comment on that. AFAIK apart from the 1966 Autumnglo guitars shipped to Rose Morris in the UK, all the other f-hole guitars exported to Rose Morris in Australia and elsewhere were Fireglo. It's possible Rose Morris in the UK may have resold/exported some of the Autumnglo instruments originally shipped to them to their subsidiary in Australia or third party distributors/retailers in other markets, but I don't recall seeing evidence of that...if you have some Glen, would be great to see it. The other relevant data point I have is that the handful of 1966 Rose Morris Autumnglo guitars that I have seen or heard of coming up for sale in recent years have all been sold in the UK.

[glen_l]

I must admit I had forgotten about the '66 notes where Rickenbacker did actually ship some guitars directly to several countries including Australia. Prior to this ('64 - '65) Rose Morris distribution was via the UK. Smith does indicate that the '66 Autumnglo's were all shipped to the UK. They could have distributed some of them further afield but we'll never know as Rose Morris' own records are long gone. Many years ago I corresponded with the company in the UK that had purchased Rose Morris, when I was trying to see if any record existed regarding the 1996 that was given to Lennon.... I managed to get someone interested enough to have a good look because of the Lennon connection, but alas, the RM records were all gone

[k43rover]

I must admit I had forgotten about the '66 notes where Rickenbacker did actually ship some guitars directly to several countries including Australia. Prior to this ('64 - '65) Rose Morris distribution was via the UK.

All the 64-65 Rose Morris guitars were Fireglo. AFAIK Autumnglo guitars were only shipped to Rose Morris in the UK in 1966. BTW, I'm pretty sure that there were (Rose Morris style) f-hole exports later in the '60's to other markets e.g. Italy....these would have taken place after Rose Morris in the UK had lost its distribution rights.

[glen_l]

Sorry, I must have been doing that edit when you posted.

[k43rover]

I..we'll never know as Rose Morris' own records are long gone. Many years ago I corresponded with the company in the UK that had purchased Rose Morris, when I was trying to see if any record existed regarding the 1996 that was given to Lennon.... I managed to get someone interested enough to have a good look because of the Lennon connection, but alas, the RM records were all gone

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Rose Morris in the UK did export guitars in the 66-67 period as by that time I understand sales of (six string) Rickenbackers were very much in decline in the UK. As a result, if they had excess stock in the UK and were still able to move the guitars via Rose Morris Australia (or elsewhere) it would have made business sense.

[glen_l]

Another interesting thing about the '66 onward period when the distribution deal with Rose Morris UK had ended, the soundholes in the export guitars gradually reverted to the conventional type. I've seen several examples of late 60's export Rics here in Aus with standard scimitar soundholes. It could even be that the '66 Rics with 'f' hole found here in Aus were excess stock distributed from the UK as you say Eddie. It would explain why we have both types here. There would be no need for Rickenbacker to ship 'f' hole models if the deal with RM was over and they were shipping directly to other countries.

[k43rover]

Another interesting thing about the '66 onward period when the distribution deal with Rose Morris UK had ended, the soundholes in the export guitars gradually reverted to the conventional type. I've seen several examples late 60's export Rics here in Aus with standard scimitar soundholes.

Another interesting thing with Rose Morris UK in this period is that the rapid decline in sales of genuine Rickenbacker guitars seems to have prompted the family to commission the Italian (later Japanese) made Shaftesbury branded clones to try to drum up sales at a much lower price point. I understand this decision was, unsurprisingly, one of the main reasons that they lost the official Rickenbacker distribution rights (which I think occurred sometime in mid/late 1967).

[glen_l]

This has all been very informative thanks Eddie

[k43rover]

It could even be that the '66 Rics with 'f' hole found here in Aus were excess stock distributed from the UK as you say Eddie. It would explain why we have both types here. There would be no need for Rickenbacker to ship 'f' hole models if the deal with RM was over and they were shipping directly to other countries.

The Smith figures suggest that only model 1998 guitars were shipped to Rose Morris Australia in 1966. So if you find a '66 model 1997 over there, it was most probably originally shipped to the UK first. However, I've seen several '60's RoMo guitars for sale in Australia where the listing makes clear that the guitar was originally carried across with an individual émigré from the UK, rather than being bought from Rose Morris Australia. As far as I can tell, the later guitars which were originally exported direct from the factory to Rose Morris Australia carry a suffix "A" to the model designation in the cavity - for example, see pic attached below from a 1967 model 1998 (cavity marking = 345 EXP A).

[k43rover]

This has all been very informative thanks Eddie

You're welcome! I love this detail stuff...especially anything to do with Rose Morris guitars!!

[johnhall]

I noticed a comment about certain Rose Morris guitars being shipping to the UK only. It's not correct because all Rose Morris guitars were shipped from CA to the UK only. From there, they were distributed to various countries in Europe and the daughter company, Rose Music here in Australia.

Not true. We made many direct shipments to Rose Morris Pty in Australia.

I don't know the exact nature of the relationship between the companies but our files are filled with direct correspondence between ourselves and the Australian managers. My guess is that it was some form of joint venture rather than a subsidiary.

We still have all of the original orders invoices, customs documents, and various communications- and it's all in entirely separate files from similar business in that era with Rose Morris in the U.K. My dad even went down there to call on them in person about 1965.

[k43rover]

I don't know the exact nature of the relationship between the companies but our files are filled with direct correspondence between ourselves and the Australian managers. My guess is that it was some form of joint venture rather than a subsidiary.

I recall reading somewhere that initially there was some sort of formal link between the UK and Australian "Rose, Morris" businesses but they parted ways at some point. If that's right, sounds like it may have happened either before or during the period they were distributing Rickenbacker guitars in the '60's.