Fireglo

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:59 am

Paul, I have a taste for FG, but the differences through the years are striking. The light '60's FG gave way to a slightly darker 70's/80's FG, then on to my all time favourite, the deep lush '90's FG's & now on to the orangy/pinky hue of todays FG.

A couple of questions....first of all, why the difference (quite extreme differences) between the eras. Also, I read that FG darkens with age, but this has clearly not happened to many of the '60's FG's, although they have aged beautifully. Is this right...does FG darken with age?

I had a new 330FG a while ago that was so 'bright', that I couldn't live with it. I do have a '04 4003FG that is much better & quite a nice colour. I do have to say though, that the new FG's on the whole, do seem to be quite orangy & bright.

I would be interested in your expert view on this.

BTW, great work Paul on your new topic....

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:00 pm

Thank you, Tony. Thanks for checking in!

FG is indeed a fascinating topic, being so wrapped up in the history of Rickenbacker guitars. The topic of variations in its hues is a complex one, but I'll share what I know, which is of a general nature.

There are a number of variables working here. Some are related to manufacture, and others to the history of the guitar itself, post-sale. Related to manufacture is the FG tint itself, the formulation, the supplier, the employee who painted it and his (her) experience and technique. In other words, the things that make a handbuilt and especially hand-finished instrument so special and personal.

Rickenbacker has changed paint vendors more than a couple of times over the years. Only they know for sure, and I think perhaps if we asked John Hall, he'd have to check vendor records himself! As John has mentioned, the factory typically has two painters working--one applying color and one applying sealer and conversion varnish. To watch them work (especially the color painter when he's shading an FG guitar) is industrial ballet. I did a quick study of the color painter's technique and routine when he does a guitar, and it has helped my own finishing immensely. I will tell you--you need strong hands and arms, because for a good deal of the time, you are holding the instrument by the neck and pivoting it in every direction to get the paint in just the right areas and densities. At the same time, you're painting in a smooth arc or straight line, to avoid dark or light spots or jagged transitions. It is very concentrated, intense work. For only a fraction of the time is the guitar actually hung on a hook.

Watching this, one can imagine how variations in application can occur, and I'm sure that each new painter--and there haven't been that many--has his own technique.

All the Fender nutz search out the Abby Ybarra pickups (and of course, Fender has beatified her with "Master Winder" status--it's amazing how bull***t marketing takes over everything and tries to make it legendary in an attempt to wring the last bit of profit out of it, but that's another topic for another day...), so might Rickenbacker fanatics, if they only knew who those painters were, might search out a guitar shaded by Painter X or Y. But we don't know, so we can't seek. There's a lot of the Rickenbacker legend that's NOT common knowledge, unlike Fender's facts and factoids.

Then there the issues of environmental variations and their effects upon the various FG tint formulas from the various suppliers over the years, sprayed by the different painters on different days with differing amounts of sleep and/or alcohol and/or caffeine the night before...

Then there's the wood itself, which plays a part, depending upon its own history. Sometimes maple yellows rapidly upon exposure to UV, sometimes it doesn't. How much UV blocker is in the supplier's varnish? Any? Some?

How much sunlight did the guitar get? The late '70s 362 I saw two weeks ago had what I would call a fairly pale FG; looking recent. My own '83 Electro's is medium-dark, but it's also got a thinner coating of CV.

There is history to be written on this fascinating topic, but to make it complete, we'd need to know who the painters were (interesting stories whenever people are concerned), when they worked, how their careers overlapped with paint formulations and suppliers coming and going. Then we'd have the manufacturing end of it documented and tied together.

Then might it be possible to begin to understand, say, that supplier "Y"s FG tint reacted to UV by "browning" (because of a proprietary pigment formula), while "Z"s merely faded a bit, or "A"s turned orange...

So many variables, so little time. But I think that with time, more information will inevitably become available.

But we do need John to write his book...

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:38 am

Thanks for your answer Paul, it makes a lot of sense. The funny thing about FG, is that the cut off points for the different shades are so close to the different eras end!

The 90's FG is so VASTLY different to the 60's, or the modern FG. I would love to find out exactly why this eras FG was like that. As you say, different paremeters would have a bearing on it, but these '90's FG's were consistant in their colour. Could it have been a deliberate attempt at following some sort of fashion, or do you think it was just the advent of a new sprayer/paint supplier?

(post 999!)

ken_j · Post by **ken_j** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:19 am

At about last Christmas my local dealer received a 330 FG and a 4001C63 FG. There was a night and day difference in them. The 4001 was dark red and the 330 was much lighter. I would describe the 330 as bright. Is this because they were sprayed on different days or by 2 different people? Or because of the sprayer's or even RIC's interpatation of what a "C63" should look like? The variables are endless. I've seen older FG Ricks that the red looks more like paint than stain. Is this because it was sprayed that heavy?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:41 am

The Rick FG is closer to a transparent paint than a stain. Stain penetrates the wood, so it is typically put on before sealing wood. The Rick shading color is applied after sealer.

I call the Rick FG a "dye"--it has some body to it, sort of like an automotive "candy color", and it's sprayed over a sealed guitar. In my experience, this is the only way to get an even and controllable shading over wood.

As to the opacity issue, it takes several coats to shade the darkest areas. (When I paint a Rick 'burst, the number of passes range from 1 near the center to about 6 at the dark edges.

All these dyes including FG can go a bit cloudy or opaque with age. This would of course include Autumnglo and possibly Montezuma Brown and Blueburst.

Will Blueburst age into Aquaburst or even Greenburst over time? We'll know in a couple of decades.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:19 am

Actually there's three people in the spray room. Normally one does sealing, one clear coats, and the third does the colors including the shading. It really has more to do with the actual booths themselves as they are somewhat specialzed for each task. However, all three painters are qualified to do shading or any of the tasks, for that matter, so there can be some crossover depending on the workload.

As far as I remember, the Fireglo dye (and yes it really IS classified as a dye) has been one formula from the same supplier since the 1970's. This is not true for some of the other colors, notably the Midnight Blue.

Different models are intentionally sprayed different ways, i.e. the vintage and C Series follow the guitars they are supposed to replicate.

More than anything, the variations are due to personal technique by the color coater. Since the 80's, there's probably been 15 different people who have shaded but the greatest number were done by only 4 people- Charlie, Dick, Gus, and Oscar.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:59 am

Thanks, John--now we can start looking for "Oscar" and "Gus" FGs...

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:13 am

Paul: As a curmudgeon, you and Oscar should hit it off.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:23 am

I met Oscar, at least I believe he's the ballerino I mentioned. He was putting on a show for the Boss (John) and his guest (me).

Reminded me of the Bowler, Jesus, in "The Big Lebowski."

ben_hall · Post by **ben_hall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:29 am

That's him! Once he asked me if I work out and then belted out some Spanish tune and proceeded to spray paint a toy dog turquoise!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:06 pm

Quite the Ladies Man, huh, Ben?

(Sorry, didn't mean to remind you!)

It is amazing how impressions stick with us. My first impression of you was MUCH more positive. Entirely positive, as a matter of fact.

BTW, is the turquoise toy dog for sale? (JOKE)

kevin · Post by **kevin** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:31 am

For those who were at the SoCal Confluence on Saturday, they could have seen my 366/12 body from the late 60s. It plainly shows that there is fading and yellowing -- the original pinkish center was quite clear under the area where the comb used to be.