Somewhere I recall reading that Lennon wanted to have his Casino refinished back to the original sunburst. Maybe he was having nostalgic feeling himself with his old guitars? Wonder if he was truly happy with the restoration job that was done on the Ric?
Peter in you case with the 4003 I would just let it be as you have a history with it. If you're in the mood revigorate your senses and create a new interest in the bass a refin might be cool.
Jeez, McCartney's 4001 actually went through 3 finishes.
On Refinishing My 4003 Silver
Moderator: jingle_jangle
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
Joe and Jamie, you've nailed it.
Now, about Rickenbackers.
And here we run smack-on into the concept of "intrinsic value" and how it relates to the concept of "monetary value".
Briefly put, the two have no relationship that can be predicted, or counted upon.
Intrinsic value where a guitar is concerned, could be based upon three judgements of value (or quality, if you wish).
1. How well-made is the instrument?
2. How does it play?
3. Does it have historic or sentimental value?
Monetary value of an instrument is based on one thing.
1. Supply and demand.
That's a sad state of affairs, because it takes our ideas of value, which include concepts that seem and feel "right", like beauty, playability, craftsmanship, and sound, trashes them, and replaces them with a dollar value based on what a businessman considers their fair market value to be.
And if things get too thin on the ground, why, with a couple of cooperative manufacturers interested in turning a buck and damn the ethics, the supply can go up (once price is high enough to support this step) by releasing various "limited editions" at inflated prices, to make sales of new items based upon inflated values of the old ones that the new ones are copied from...got that?
So we have the Epi lines (how many different Casinos can you buy now, at how many different price points? Of course I'm gonna tell you about the early 1960s, when I was finally big enough to play a fullsized guitar, and when our local larger music store had sunburst '50s Strats on the wall for $150.00 and sometimes even less.
Personally, I'd refinish a '50s or '60s Fender if it was mine and beat (oh, sorry, "reliced"--which, BTW, is an accepted misspelling, the correct spelling being "relicked", believe it or not...) in a heartbeat, back to factory-fresh, and have done same on more than one occasion.
Intrinsic value: Rickenbackers have great intrinsic value. They have consistent historic ties with their ancestors. They are made using updated versions of original methods, but still largely by hand. They are crafted, not assembled. They are thin on the ground. They gave rock music one of its signature electric sounds (others being Les Paul, Gretsch Filtertron, and Fender Strat and Tele). They are beautifully made. They play very well.
But, for the reason of supply and demand (manipulated by a loose partnership of big dealers and the Marketing departments of the "major" manufacturers), their monetary value shows honest and consistent depreciation but no stratospheric typical prices.
Which makes us, regardless of age and playing experience, a fairly unique group of people...we talk a good deal about prices and values, but talk even more about intangibles, like quality and feel and "jangle", which are only the tip of the Rickenbacker iceberg. So we identify with our instruments more than our wallets.
In the case of a Rick, having your instrument properly restored or refinished, if that's your desire, should not have a huge impact on its worth, period. If you are wanting to upgrade, change a color, remove some buckle rash, or just renew a relationship with an old Fireglo flame, I say: don't let it be solely a monetary decision. Rick people have seldom followed the pack, and in this case, our fellow Rick-o-Philes and even dealers will come around. Nobody hates a beautiful guitar, and those who worship cigarette burns and gummed-up fretboards are just aping somebody else's crafty way of insuring their return on investment.
Do it your way.
Now, about Rickenbackers.
And here we run smack-on into the concept of "intrinsic value" and how it relates to the concept of "monetary value".
Briefly put, the two have no relationship that can be predicted, or counted upon.
Intrinsic value where a guitar is concerned, could be based upon three judgements of value (or quality, if you wish).
1. How well-made is the instrument?
2. How does it play?
3. Does it have historic or sentimental value?
Monetary value of an instrument is based on one thing.
1. Supply and demand.
That's a sad state of affairs, because it takes our ideas of value, which include concepts that seem and feel "right", like beauty, playability, craftsmanship, and sound, trashes them, and replaces them with a dollar value based on what a businessman considers their fair market value to be.
And if things get too thin on the ground, why, with a couple of cooperative manufacturers interested in turning a buck and damn the ethics, the supply can go up (once price is high enough to support this step) by releasing various "limited editions" at inflated prices, to make sales of new items based upon inflated values of the old ones that the new ones are copied from...got that?
So we have the Epi lines (how many different Casinos can you buy now, at how many different price points? Of course I'm gonna tell you about the early 1960s, when I was finally big enough to play a fullsized guitar, and when our local larger music store had sunburst '50s Strats on the wall for $150.00 and sometimes even less.
Personally, I'd refinish a '50s or '60s Fender if it was mine and beat (oh, sorry, "reliced"--which, BTW, is an accepted misspelling, the correct spelling being "relicked", believe it or not...) in a heartbeat, back to factory-fresh, and have done same on more than one occasion.
Intrinsic value: Rickenbackers have great intrinsic value. They have consistent historic ties with their ancestors. They are made using updated versions of original methods, but still largely by hand. They are crafted, not assembled. They are thin on the ground. They gave rock music one of its signature electric sounds (others being Les Paul, Gretsch Filtertron, and Fender Strat and Tele). They are beautifully made. They play very well.
But, for the reason of supply and demand (manipulated by a loose partnership of big dealers and the Marketing departments of the "major" manufacturers), their monetary value shows honest and consistent depreciation but no stratospheric typical prices.
Which makes us, regardless of age and playing experience, a fairly unique group of people...we talk a good deal about prices and values, but talk even more about intangibles, like quality and feel and "jangle", which are only the tip of the Rickenbacker iceberg. So we identify with our instruments more than our wallets.
In the case of a Rick, having your instrument properly restored or refinished, if that's your desire, should not have a huge impact on its worth, period. If you are wanting to upgrade, change a color, remove some buckle rash, or just renew a relationship with an old Fireglo flame, I say: don't let it be solely a monetary decision. Rick people have seldom followed the pack, and in this case, our fellow Rick-o-Philes and even dealers will come around. Nobody hates a beautiful guitar, and those who worship cigarette burns and gummed-up fretboards are just aping somebody else's crafty way of insuring their return on investment.
Do it your way.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Paul: I will resist the temptation to make mine BurgerKinglo. Your points are excellent and the feeling I have for my Rickenbackers explains why I would never, unless befallen by instrument leprosy, change the finish on my 4003 Silver.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
-
tony_carey
- Advanced Member
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
This is a really interesting topic of conversation. My working gtrs all have dings & my '80 330 looks like it's fallen down several flights of stairs! I wouldn't consider refinishing them, no matter how bad they got. I am really not sure if this is a secret apreciation of the 'worn in' look, or just an acceptance of ding inevitability when a gtr is worked!
My feeling on this has two provisos...first, that it would have to be ME who made the dings, or it would be a gtr bought whilst accepting its condition. I would certainly look for a beat up gtr to do something special with refinish wise & secondly...it seems to depend on the gtr. My thinlines would never get a refinish, but in the very back of my mind...in a little corner that I don't go very often...I have actually thought about asking Paul if he would consider refinishing my 230FG to a 90's type deep, lush FG. Is that changing the colour??
I suppose that my own bottom line is that my main working gtrs would never get a refinish, but my fringe gtrs, or project gtrs would at least get considered for one.
My feeling on this has two provisos...first, that it would have to be ME who made the dings, or it would be a gtr bought whilst accepting its condition. I would certainly look for a beat up gtr to do something special with refinish wise & secondly...it seems to depend on the gtr. My thinlines would never get a refinish, but in the very back of my mind...in a little corner that I don't go very often...I have actually thought about asking Paul if he would consider refinishing my 230FG to a 90's type deep, lush FG. Is that changing the colour??
I suppose that my own bottom line is that my main working gtrs would never get a refinish, but my fringe gtrs, or project gtrs would at least get considered for one.
'Rickenbacker'...what a name! After all these years, it still thrills me.
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
An interesting twist on the topic, Tony.
It underscores the psychological (or sentimental, if you wish) aspect of guitar ownership, which we don't really anaylze too much.
Dealers, however, downplay it when it serves them to, and play it up when it'll profit them financially.
I know I'm beating the mule again here, but to me, the most cynical, patronizing attitude of all is displayed by formerly-grand companies in the biz who offer "replicas" (Clapton's Gibby) or "Relics". You can just smell the mix of granola and cigar smoke which is the vapor trail remnant of today's marketing departments.
Guitars with faked histories, is spookily close to the Blade Runner's replicants with their artificial memories.
Is there any mojo at all in a guitar made last week that looks like it was kicked around somebody's stable by a herd of Clydesdales while the beer wagon sprung a leak and the ashtrays tipped over? Um, I play "Sunshine of Your Love" much better when my fingers stick to the strings. Better "woman tone".
The most fun for me is playing Dr. Frankenstein, and resurrecting a "birdhouse", as our former colleague Larry Mondello (you remember him from "Leave It To Beaver"?) termed the 1968 335 that I'm just completing as I write this.
There is also much to be said for the "worn in" look. And it is a very personal thing. Case in point:
There is a '66 Fender Jaguar on eBay today. I have a soft spot for these, as I was a huge fan of Carl Wilson back around the time of the Sacramento Concert. This guitar is an original sunburst (three-tone) with the gorgeous deep brown tortoise-shell pickguard that Fenders had back then.
This Jaguar is beat, but not too beat. It has dings and wear in just the right spots, and looks well-used, but never neglected. It speaks to me, breaking all my rules. Normally I would pick up a guitar like that for a low price (never a "song" anymore!) and turn it into a sparkling Wild Honey... But not this one. So I'm keeping an eye on price.
You've gotta follow your heart, NOT your pocketbook!
It underscores the psychological (or sentimental, if you wish) aspect of guitar ownership, which we don't really anaylze too much.
Dealers, however, downplay it when it serves them to, and play it up when it'll profit them financially.
I know I'm beating the mule again here, but to me, the most cynical, patronizing attitude of all is displayed by formerly-grand companies in the biz who offer "replicas" (Clapton's Gibby) or "Relics". You can just smell the mix of granola and cigar smoke which is the vapor trail remnant of today's marketing departments.
Guitars with faked histories, is spookily close to the Blade Runner's replicants with their artificial memories.
Is there any mojo at all in a guitar made last week that looks like it was kicked around somebody's stable by a herd of Clydesdales while the beer wagon sprung a leak and the ashtrays tipped over? Um, I play "Sunshine of Your Love" much better when my fingers stick to the strings. Better "woman tone".
The most fun for me is playing Dr. Frankenstein, and resurrecting a "birdhouse", as our former colleague Larry Mondello (you remember him from "Leave It To Beaver"?) termed the 1968 335 that I'm just completing as I write this.
There is also much to be said for the "worn in" look. And it is a very personal thing. Case in point:
There is a '66 Fender Jaguar on eBay today. I have a soft spot for these, as I was a huge fan of Carl Wilson back around the time of the Sacramento Concert. This guitar is an original sunburst (three-tone) with the gorgeous deep brown tortoise-shell pickguard that Fenders had back then.
This Jaguar is beat, but not too beat. It has dings and wear in just the right spots, and looks well-used, but never neglected. It speaks to me, breaking all my rules. Normally I would pick up a guitar like that for a low price (never a "song" anymore!) and turn it into a sparkling Wild Honey... But not this one. So I'm keeping an eye on price.
You've gotta follow your heart, NOT your pocketbook!
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
That a relationship is formed between a player and his or her guitar is not news. What is intriguing and at the same time fascinating is how a bond is formed almost immediately with one type of instrument and not at all with another. Dare I say, "love at first sight."
It seems that it is not necessary to play the instrument or feel its action or hear it firsthand to be spellbound with it. So what are the salient factors responsible for this bond - its unique shape, including contour of body and headstock or its tonality, scintillating or mellow. I would argue that features such as these are only secondary and are formed by association, in all likelihood through classical conditioning. In discussing this with many music enthusiasts over the years, a primary factor in the relationship seems to be the immediate appeal of the Rickenbacker artist that drew your attention to the guitar. It was his or her perceived bond with the instrument that was important. The idea of one day entering into a similar relationship with equal personal joy and accolade from others is a fantasy that is capable of lying dormant and spanning decades. Sure, throw in a healthy dose of hormones and the bond between the instrument and almost any other temporal cue becomes possible.
Rickenbacker, rickenbacker, RiCkEnBaCkEr. How many different ways can you think about it? How many different thoughts and feelings become discriminant stimuli that will set the stage for the ultimate purchase when the financial conditions are right. Other makes and models will come and go, Fender, Gibson, Hofner, Gretsch... But none of these makes would have the attraction of that Rickenbacker that allows for a reminiscence with no equal, the moment when time stood still and Topo Gigio came in a distant second.
With your first Rickenbacker the bond is cemented and it takes on a feeling that is like no other. The fantasy has become reality and you have crossed the line to Rickenbacker. Once done, there is no going back. The sound and feel allows you to be transported to a special place. Holding and playing an Icon is tough to beat, and is exceeded only by having the chance to discuss its meaning with others. After all, sharing the joy and the meaning of owning a Rickenbacker only has true meaning when you are able to share it with others.
It seems that it is not necessary to play the instrument or feel its action or hear it firsthand to be spellbound with it. So what are the salient factors responsible for this bond - its unique shape, including contour of body and headstock or its tonality, scintillating or mellow. I would argue that features such as these are only secondary and are formed by association, in all likelihood through classical conditioning. In discussing this with many music enthusiasts over the years, a primary factor in the relationship seems to be the immediate appeal of the Rickenbacker artist that drew your attention to the guitar. It was his or her perceived bond with the instrument that was important. The idea of one day entering into a similar relationship with equal personal joy and accolade from others is a fantasy that is capable of lying dormant and spanning decades. Sure, throw in a healthy dose of hormones and the bond between the instrument and almost any other temporal cue becomes possible.
Rickenbacker, rickenbacker, RiCkEnBaCkEr. How many different ways can you think about it? How many different thoughts and feelings become discriminant stimuli that will set the stage for the ultimate purchase when the financial conditions are right. Other makes and models will come and go, Fender, Gibson, Hofner, Gretsch... But none of these makes would have the attraction of that Rickenbacker that allows for a reminiscence with no equal, the moment when time stood still and Topo Gigio came in a distant second.
With your first Rickenbacker the bond is cemented and it takes on a feeling that is like no other. The fantasy has become reality and you have crossed the line to Rickenbacker. Once done, there is no going back. The sound and feel allows you to be transported to a special place. Holding and playing an Icon is tough to beat, and is exceeded only by having the chance to discuss its meaning with others. After all, sharing the joy and the meaning of owning a Rickenbacker only has true meaning when you are able to share it with others.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
Wow. Kick out the jams.
Peter, shall we have a Rickenbacker Poetry Jam? That is eminently quotable and of course spot-on.
Personally, what got me into Ricks was a FG 660/12 with checkerboard binding, and it was a closeup of the binding in the photo of the guitar, that mesmerized me. Completely a graphic stimulus. McGuinn or Lennon came later.
Now I'm overstimulated...
Peter, shall we have a Rickenbacker Poetry Jam? That is eminently quotable and of course spot-on.
Personally, what got me into Ricks was a FG 660/12 with checkerboard binding, and it was a closeup of the binding in the photo of the guitar, that mesmerized me. Completely a graphic stimulus. McGuinn or Lennon came later.
Now I'm overstimulated...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
-
tony_carey
- Advanced Member
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
-
melibreits
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4081
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:00 am
- Contact:
Wow, Peter, that was well said: eloquent and beautiful, and so true! It brings me back to the day that my husband presented me with my first Ric.... I knew after playing one that no other guitar would ever do again!
Here's the chorus to the song I wrote about the experience:
"Once I've held and played the best, baby, I won't settle for less!"
Hopefully I can put it up in an appropriately jangly sound clip in the near future!
Here's the chorus to the song I wrote about the experience:
"Once I've held and played the best, baby, I won't settle for less!"
Hopefully I can put it up in an appropriately jangly sound clip in the near future!
"Once I've held and played the best, baby, I won't settle for less!"
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
-
tony_carey
- Advanced Member
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
-
jingle_jangle
- RRF Moderator
- Posts: 22679
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 am
- Contact:
Tony, as years go by, you may be surprised at how aged MB begins to look like aged AG. MB has a touch less red in the dye, but wait until the CV starts to amber up a bit...
Pictures soon on that vintage AG 335 as it nears completion.
Pictures soon on that vintage AG 335 as it nears completion.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut