I mentioned this amp in passing in a previous posting, but I aim this posting at guitarists who also play a bass or other instrument as well as guitar, and want a single amp that is easily transportable for practice and jam sessions where they will be using more than one instrument. Many Rickenbacker owners have guitars and basses, with perhaps a steel guitar, keyboards, acoustic guitar, harmonica, banjo, etc. This is an amp for guys like you.
I discovered this setup by accident and a bit of experimentation. I took my Marshall AVT20 and Traynor YCV40 up to Arkansas for my hard rocking youngest brother to try out. Playing my Dakota 650D, the AVT20 made a good showing for itself, but it was the Traynor YCV40 that really impressed him. He couldn't believe it only packed 40 watts. Now he grabbed my Laredo 4004L, and tried it with both amps. As I suspected, below 80 HZ the Traynor fell on it's face, being an open-back design. What made it wonderful as a guitar amp simply ruined it for making any deep bass. The little closed-back Marshall was a surprise, however. By cranking up the bass EQ control, it sounded pretty good as a 20 watt bass amp for home practice. But the windows didn't exactly rattle.
Later I decided to look for a suitable speaker to turn the AVT20 into my bass practice amp, as it had the features I wanted like CD input, headphone jack, external loudspeaker output, and the real kicker: a genuine Accutronics spring reverb (not that digital **** that most practice amps come with). Since the amp is a ValveState model that emulates a tube amp, I wanted a 10" bass speaker that closely matched that used in the Ampeg SVT bass cabinets. In other words, a "wannabe mini SVT" practice amp. Celestion had no 10" bass speakers like those in the SVT cabinets, so I decided to check out the Eminence website because they were probably the ones supplying Ampeg with SVT drivers.
Bingo! Two 10" bass guitar speaker models were suitable for my needs. The Legend BP102 actually had the flattest response down to 40Hz, but it was less efficient at 91 dB and rolled off the highs above 2.5 kHz. The Legend B102 still went down to 40 Hz fairly well, but was much more efficient and much more extended on the high end. It did not even begin to roll off the highs until past 5 kHz. More than enough for any bass, and actually better than many lead guitar speakers. The B102 was also better made since it had a cast aluminum frame basket (much more rigid and "dead" than thin stamped steel) and a whizzer cone to extend the highs and provide better dispersion off-axis. It also had a HUGE 59 oz. magnet for 95 dB @ 1 watt efficiency and tight cone control in the deep bass. It looked like an adaptation of a full range Fostex 8" driver used by audiophiles and based on the English Lowther speakers that cost hundreds of dollars each. Parts Express had them for the VERY reasonable price (considering the weight and build quality) of around $89 delivered.
As soon as I unpacked the Legend B102, I was very impressed with the build quality. It made the Celestion G10C-30 look like Pee Wee Herman next to Arnold Schwarzenegger (200 watt rating vs. a 30 watt rating; 59 oz. magnet vs. a 13 oz. magnet). Out came that Celestion, and in went the Eminence. The mounting screws were too short because of the extremely thick cast rim of the B102 basket. Bummer. The bolts were metric, so off to the auto parts store for some M5 0.8x40mm bolts and M5 wave lock washers. Snug down the bolts, connect the leads, and screw the cabinet back in place. Ready to test!
Out came the 4004L, and before you know it, things were rattling all around the apartment. On only 20 puny RMS watts (40 watts peak)! That works out to 111 dB of peak sound level before you start pushing it into distortion. I also noticed how heavy the little AVT20 had become, with at least 3 more pounds of weight, for a new total of around 38 pounds!
Out came the 650D, and it still sounded good as a guitar amp! The Eminence B102 is actually cleaner sounding, as bass speaker cones are stiffer than guitar speaker cones. And that whizzer cone means you never run out of highs, and you do it without one of those lousy piezoelectric horns that sound like **** and can fail on you. I don't have a steel guitar handy, or an organ or keyboard, either. But the way it sounds on bass and guitar leads me to believe it would make a good little steel guitar practice amp and an organ/keyboard amp as well. Since the frequency response has been extended by almost an octave both high and low, it functions much better with a CD played through it than it did with the original cheap Celestion speaker.
You English guys can save more than enough on the Marshall AVT20 compared to what us Yankees have to pay, that you can more than afford the little bit extra the Eminence Legend B102 bass guitar speaker will cost you over there. It has a full retail price of $138 on this side of the Big Pond, with an average street price of about $100. You will not be disappointed in the build quality, and the speaker even comes with a very nice blue stick-on logo that proudly proclaims "Genuine Eminence Inside", to personalize your amp.
Us Yankees have been using lots of Celestion speakers in our American amps for a long time, and loving the sound (ALL my other amps use Celestions). This setup that uses an extended range American bass guitar speaker in a little English guitar practice amp is a winning combination that forms a new style of Transatlantic Alliance that gives us a neat little Do-It-All Amplifier for those players that play a variety of instruments and want to only be burdened with a single practice amp. But it's a DIY (do it yourself, or do without) proposition, as this type of amplifier seems to not be promoted, probably due to perceived prejudices against it, as well as reluctance on the part of the musical instrument industry that wants to sell you a specialized piece of gear at every turn.
This is a practice amp for the generalist, AND it rattles the windows (but probably not in a really big room).
P.S. If you add acoustic stuffing material to the cabinet, it will extend the bass response a bit. However, it may deaden the sound and reduce the efficiency a bit. It's a judgement call; no right or wrong either way. Those of you who are the intrepid experimenter sort may want to cut a hole in the back panel and try a bass reflex design by installing a tuned duct. I'm happy for now, but don't be surprised if it gets changed around a bit more before it's all over.
DIY Do-It-All Practice Amp for Guitar, Bass, and Steel Guita
Moderator: jingle_jangle
I decided to upgrade the amp since my last post. The peakiness at the box resonance frequency was causing me trouble, and I wanted a more linear and extended low frequency response.
I installed a Scan-Speak 29001 flow resistance vent and added about 2/3 pound of Acousta-Stuf nylon fiber damping material. The impedance at resonance was cut by half or more by the vent and in conjunction with the damping fiber it made the speaker think it was in a bigger enclosure. The low end response in more extended and more linear. It is no longer necessary to keep the bass knob cranked all the way clockwise for decent deep bass response. That gives more volume capability before distortion. The midbass hump due to the box resonance is greatly reduced. A good tone can be had with all the tone controls set straight up, so there is plenty of adjustment available with each control knob. I'm getting a range of tones that I could only dream of when I had my old Peavey folded horn bass amp. The amp has more bottom end than you will ever need for lead guitar playing. It has strong output all the way down to 41 Hz and has no trouble making things buzz all around the apartment.
Parts Express has the parts you need: Scan-Speak 29001 flow resistance vent, part# 296-546 @ $6.95 ea. Acousta-Stuf 1 pound bag, part# 260-317 @ $9.75 ea.
I used the vent as a template and traced the outline on the center of the back panel then cut the mounting hole with a jigsaw. Sportsman's Goop was used to glue the vent to the back. Spray adhesive, either 3M 77 or Elmer's Spray Adhesive, can be used to attach the damping material to the cabinet walls.
It is now apparent that I need to experiment with different preamp tubes to find one that gives a more gradual transition between clean and distorted tones. There is a noticeable "toggle switch effect" between clean and distorted tones that seems to change a bit with the frequency. This is more noticeable now that the frequency response is flatter than it was before. That is the next issue to be addressed.
I installed a Scan-Speak 29001 flow resistance vent and added about 2/3 pound of Acousta-Stuf nylon fiber damping material. The impedance at resonance was cut by half or more by the vent and in conjunction with the damping fiber it made the speaker think it was in a bigger enclosure. The low end response in more extended and more linear. It is no longer necessary to keep the bass knob cranked all the way clockwise for decent deep bass response. That gives more volume capability before distortion. The midbass hump due to the box resonance is greatly reduced. A good tone can be had with all the tone controls set straight up, so there is plenty of adjustment available with each control knob. I'm getting a range of tones that I could only dream of when I had my old Peavey folded horn bass amp. The amp has more bottom end than you will ever need for lead guitar playing. It has strong output all the way down to 41 Hz and has no trouble making things buzz all around the apartment.
Parts Express has the parts you need: Scan-Speak 29001 flow resistance vent, part# 296-546 @ $6.95 ea. Acousta-Stuf 1 pound bag, part# 260-317 @ $9.75 ea.
I used the vent as a template and traced the outline on the center of the back panel then cut the mounting hole with a jigsaw. Sportsman's Goop was used to glue the vent to the back. Spray adhesive, either 3M 77 or Elmer's Spray Adhesive, can be used to attach the damping material to the cabinet walls.
It is now apparent that I need to experiment with different preamp tubes to find one that gives a more gradual transition between clean and distorted tones. There is a noticeable "toggle switch effect" between clean and distorted tones that seems to change a bit with the frequency. This is more noticeable now that the frequency response is flatter than it was before. That is the next issue to be addressed.
First off, let me say that Peter should move this thread to the Talk To The Toneman section.
I tried a new E-H 12AX7 tube in place of the standard Marshall ECC83 tube. The Marshall ECC83 is actually an Ei ECC83 gray plate tube. I compared it to a new production Ei ECC83. Exactly the same tube. Marshall seems to have picked one that is very free of microphonics. The E-H 12AX7 which is extremely immune to microphonics could not improve in that category either. The E-H 12AX7 also seemed to have a bit more tube hiss. Tube hiss is very noticeable when the gain boost is kicked in and the gain and master volume are beyond 12 0'clock in Marshall Law Territory, but the amp is normally screaming at that level when playing and it only gets noticed when you mute the strings. When playing bass through the amp, the gain boost is normally disabled and you get a nice crunch and no tube hiss with both controls beyond 12 o'clock. I'm fresh out of JJ ECC83S tubes, but would expect no improvement in any area over the Ei ECC83 gray plate. When I tested for emission, the used Marshall Ei ECC83, which is a long plate tube, had more emission than the new E-H 12AX7, which is a short plate tube. Marshall obviously installed hand picked samples of the Ei ECC83 in their new AVT series amps, or I just got really lucky. The available NOS supply has been long since picked over by the knowledgeable tube dealers. Never pay much because you never know if they have problems making them unsuitable for high gain audio amps, unless buying from reputable dealers with a warranty.
I measured about 114 dB at output clipping in a normal sized bedroom on my modified amp. The B102 has been listed as 97 dB efficient, which is very high for a bass driver, so you get 110 db out of 20 watts clean power. My AVT20 obviously puts out over 20 watts at full output clipping, which means Marshall gave an honest output rating at 20 watts power.
If you only want to play bass through a modified AVT20 similar to mine, then the Eminence BP102 may be the better speaker as it has more extended lows and can play 5 string bass with no problem. It allows the Marshall FDD tube amp output emulating circuitry to kick in at a saner practice volume. The problem is that the BP102 dies above 2.5 kHz and is rated as 91 dB efficient. It is a law of physics: for any size speaker you must sacrifice efficiency to get lower frequency extension, with a similar decrease in high frequency extension. It would ruin the amp for regular guitar unless a tweeter were installed, with an increase in phase shift problems due to the crossover. Forget loud jam sessions. A single Tannoy fullrange coaxial Hi-Fi speaker could solve the upper extension problem (why haven't modeling amps used these speakers?), but they are expensive on this side of the Big Pond and I leave that for UK experimenters to play around with, as good used samples are more available there. Those setting up a clean power amp/cabinet combination to be used with modeling preamps should consider them.
People who just want to upgrade an AVT20 for guitar should consider the Celestion Vintage 10. I have a Vintage 8 installed in my Kustom Tube 12 amp, and it takes ANYTHING that is thrown at it, including bass guitar, without farting out or falling on its face. It is just as efficient as the B102, and costs less. Sound volume is reduced below 75 Hz, and also a bit less extended in the highs.
The AVT20 tone controls are optimized for guitar, so run a Tech 21 Bass Compactor into the amp if that gives you a problem. The two sets of staggered tone controls give you a 5-band graphic equalizer of sorts. It also converts a passive bass to active bass. I just use my SansAmp RBI ahead of the AVT20, which is the preamp version of the Bass Driver DI.
I tried a new E-H 12AX7 tube in place of the standard Marshall ECC83 tube. The Marshall ECC83 is actually an Ei ECC83 gray plate tube. I compared it to a new production Ei ECC83. Exactly the same tube. Marshall seems to have picked one that is very free of microphonics. The E-H 12AX7 which is extremely immune to microphonics could not improve in that category either. The E-H 12AX7 also seemed to have a bit more tube hiss. Tube hiss is very noticeable when the gain boost is kicked in and the gain and master volume are beyond 12 0'clock in Marshall Law Territory, but the amp is normally screaming at that level when playing and it only gets noticed when you mute the strings. When playing bass through the amp, the gain boost is normally disabled and you get a nice crunch and no tube hiss with both controls beyond 12 o'clock. I'm fresh out of JJ ECC83S tubes, but would expect no improvement in any area over the Ei ECC83 gray plate. When I tested for emission, the used Marshall Ei ECC83, which is a long plate tube, had more emission than the new E-H 12AX7, which is a short plate tube. Marshall obviously installed hand picked samples of the Ei ECC83 in their new AVT series amps, or I just got really lucky. The available NOS supply has been long since picked over by the knowledgeable tube dealers. Never pay much because you never know if they have problems making them unsuitable for high gain audio amps, unless buying from reputable dealers with a warranty.
I measured about 114 dB at output clipping in a normal sized bedroom on my modified amp. The B102 has been listed as 97 dB efficient, which is very high for a bass driver, so you get 110 db out of 20 watts clean power. My AVT20 obviously puts out over 20 watts at full output clipping, which means Marshall gave an honest output rating at 20 watts power.
If you only want to play bass through a modified AVT20 similar to mine, then the Eminence BP102 may be the better speaker as it has more extended lows and can play 5 string bass with no problem. It allows the Marshall FDD tube amp output emulating circuitry to kick in at a saner practice volume. The problem is that the BP102 dies above 2.5 kHz and is rated as 91 dB efficient. It is a law of physics: for any size speaker you must sacrifice efficiency to get lower frequency extension, with a similar decrease in high frequency extension. It would ruin the amp for regular guitar unless a tweeter were installed, with an increase in phase shift problems due to the crossover. Forget loud jam sessions. A single Tannoy fullrange coaxial Hi-Fi speaker could solve the upper extension problem (why haven't modeling amps used these speakers?), but they are expensive on this side of the Big Pond and I leave that for UK experimenters to play around with, as good used samples are more available there. Those setting up a clean power amp/cabinet combination to be used with modeling preamps should consider them.
People who just want to upgrade an AVT20 for guitar should consider the Celestion Vintage 10. I have a Vintage 8 installed in my Kustom Tube 12 amp, and it takes ANYTHING that is thrown at it, including bass guitar, without farting out or falling on its face. It is just as efficient as the B102, and costs less. Sound volume is reduced below 75 Hz, and also a bit less extended in the highs.
The AVT20 tone controls are optimized for guitar, so run a Tech 21 Bass Compactor into the amp if that gives you a problem. The two sets of staggered tone controls give you a 5-band graphic equalizer of sorts. It also converts a passive bass to active bass. I just use my SansAmp RBI ahead of the AVT20, which is the preamp version of the Bass Driver DI.
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toneman
Phillip; Hi! Sounds like you got really involved in this project!!
A few things you might want to know. Celestion does not make the "Vintage 10" anymore. I'm sure that they have a suitable replacement for it.
Marshall, like anyother big manufacture, buys parts(like speakers) from the lowest bidder so don't expect a high quality speaker in any of their amps unless it's a special limited run or something.
Preamp tubes: Having been to the Marshall factory, I know they test every tube that goes in every amp. They buy in vast quanities and have a special section of the factory setup for testing tubes. the Ei's are the best new preamp yubes made but they also get one's from Svetlana. EL-34's are Svetlana and EL-84's for the Vox AC-30's they build for Korg are from Ei.
The hiss is common in a mostly solid state designed amp and I'm sure the extended high freq.'s of the Ei's don't help that. Ei was owned by Phillips and most of the tooling for those tubes came from another Phillips company, Mullard.
The E-H 12AX7's I've not had good luck with at all. I've encountered alot of failures with that tube in the last couple of years.
A few things you might want to know. Celestion does not make the "Vintage 10" anymore. I'm sure that they have a suitable replacement for it.
Marshall, like anyother big manufacture, buys parts(like speakers) from the lowest bidder so don't expect a high quality speaker in any of their amps unless it's a special limited run or something.
Preamp tubes: Having been to the Marshall factory, I know they test every tube that goes in every amp. They buy in vast quanities and have a special section of the factory setup for testing tubes. the Ei's are the best new preamp yubes made but they also get one's from Svetlana. EL-34's are Svetlana and EL-84's for the Vox AC-30's they build for Korg are from Ei.
The hiss is common in a mostly solid state designed amp and I'm sure the extended high freq.'s of the Ei's don't help that. Ei was owned by Phillips and most of the tooling for those tubes came from another Phillips company, Mullard.
The E-H 12AX7's I've not had good luck with at all. I've encountered alot of failures with that tube in the last couple of years.
Don, I was really surprised to hear that The E-H 12AX7 had given you problems. Watford Valves is giving it a very high recommendation for those who play heavy rock style music and want more midrange punch (in its latest production version). My only complaint with the tube so far is that it seems a bit less refined and midrange centered than the JJ ECC83S and the Ei ECC83. I think Watford Valves settled on selected samples of the JJ ECC83S to be sold as their premium Harma brand of preamp 12AX7/ECC83. I run the JJ ECC83S in my YCV40, as it tested slightly better than the Ei and E-H in that amp. The Ei ECC83S (gray plate) and E-H 12AX7 are used in my two Kustom Tube 12 amps. The Ei is slightly better for a clean sound and smoother distortion, and the E-H is slightly better for heavily distorted aggressive tones. All three tubes are the latest versions, and of course my results are based on my amps. YMMV.
I would not hesitate to use the Ei and JJ tubes in high end audiophile gear as well. For now I have NOS American tubes for that. I even have a pair of NOS Amperex 12AX7A tubes (Holland) for when the original GE's die in my C-J EV-1 phono amp.
I think that Celestion may have stopped making the Vintage 8 as well. It has a much tighter sound than the Super 8 Celestion that is stock in the Tube 12 amp. My father actually prefers the Super 8, but he does not play aggressively. It has a warmer sound than the Vintage 8 and works well for classic country music. His Tube 12 amp has the shiny plate Ei ECC83 and it sounds great. I can only find the Super 8 Celestion available from dealers in the UK, and one dealer had a list price of only 9 pounds. Too bad the shipping would ruin the super low cost for us on this side of the Big Pond. I have two new copies available that were pulled from my new Tube 12 amps, so I bought a couple of Hammond 125E transformers on sale from Angela Instruments that will drive them perfectly if I ever build a tube amp to use them in.
I would not hesitate to use the Ei and JJ tubes in high end audiophile gear as well. For now I have NOS American tubes for that. I even have a pair of NOS Amperex 12AX7A tubes (Holland) for when the original GE's die in my C-J EV-1 phono amp.
I think that Celestion may have stopped making the Vintage 8 as well. It has a much tighter sound than the Super 8 Celestion that is stock in the Tube 12 amp. My father actually prefers the Super 8, but he does not play aggressively. It has a warmer sound than the Vintage 8 and works well for classic country music. His Tube 12 amp has the shiny plate Ei ECC83 and it sounds great. I can only find the Super 8 Celestion available from dealers in the UK, and one dealer had a list price of only 9 pounds. Too bad the shipping would ruin the super low cost for us on this side of the Big Pond. I have two new copies available that were pulled from my new Tube 12 amps, so I bought a couple of Hammond 125E transformers on sale from Angela Instruments that will drive them perfectly if I ever build a tube amp to use them in.
If you have a SansAmp RBI and want to know what the AVT20/B102 combo sounds like, then here are the settings:
AVT20: Gain at 9, Volume full CW, all tone controls at 12, Gain Boost off, Reverb off
This gives a good clean tone for practice. I often use more Gain when I play louder or want more distortion. The Volume is then backed off to give an appropriate practice sound level.
SansAmp RBI: Drive 12, Presence 9, Blend full CW, Bass 12, Mid 3, Treble 9, Level set to practice sound level (varies with amp).
This is through a clean stereo system. Settings should be similar through a high quality PA system with frequency response set flat. Drive is increased and Level is decreased when adding distortion just like on the AVT20. The SansAmp RBI has no Reverb to match the AVT20, so it cannot emulate some of the tones possible without reverb effect added. The settings will not be the same when playing an RBI through another bass amp as the sound will be colored by the bass amp.
I was surprised just how close I could get the sound to match, but it was impossible to get an exact match no matter what I did. At least this will let you see if the Marshall AVT20/Eminence B102 combo amp is for you if you have access to a SansAmp RBI and clean amplification.
AVT20: Gain at 9, Volume full CW, all tone controls at 12, Gain Boost off, Reverb off
This gives a good clean tone for practice. I often use more Gain when I play louder or want more distortion. The Volume is then backed off to give an appropriate practice sound level.
SansAmp RBI: Drive 12, Presence 9, Blend full CW, Bass 12, Mid 3, Treble 9, Level set to practice sound level (varies with amp).
This is through a clean stereo system. Settings should be similar through a high quality PA system with frequency response set flat. Drive is increased and Level is decreased when adding distortion just like on the AVT20. The SansAmp RBI has no Reverb to match the AVT20, so it cannot emulate some of the tones possible without reverb effect added. The settings will not be the same when playing an RBI through another bass amp as the sound will be colored by the bass amp.
I was surprised just how close I could get the sound to match, but it was impossible to get an exact match no matter what I did. At least this will let you see if the Marshall AVT20/Eminence B102 combo amp is for you if you have access to a SansAmp RBI and clean amplification.
I don't want anybody to infer that I play with all my tone knobs at 12 o'clock as per the above setting to get the AVT20 basic tone.
I usually play with the bass knob fully clockwise because the Marshall amp is midrange forward in general across their product line, and the AVT20 is no exception. I also usually boost the treble as well. If you have a SansAmp RBI or Bass Driver DI, then you can boost there and leave the Marshall knobs at 12 o'clock or anywhere else for that matter.
The RBI is more forward in the deep bass and treble than anything you can achieve with the Marshall tone controls. It simply has more range of cut and boost, but that's necessary as it is an Emulator and not a One Trick Pony. You can REALLY get some wild sounds out of the AVT20 when you add an RBI to the input.
I usually play with the bass knob fully clockwise because the Marshall amp is midrange forward in general across their product line, and the AVT20 is no exception. I also usually boost the treble as well. If you have a SansAmp RBI or Bass Driver DI, then you can boost there and leave the Marshall knobs at 12 o'clock or anywhere else for that matter.
The RBI is more forward in the deep bass and treble than anything you can achieve with the Marshall tone controls. It simply has more range of cut and boost, but that's necessary as it is an Emulator and not a One Trick Pony. You can REALLY get some wild sounds out of the AVT20 when you add an RBI to the input.
Time for a longer-term-use update. As time goes on, the Eminence B102 speaker just keeps sounding better. My AVT20 can now give my Traynor YCV40 some serious competition in guitar tone while beating the YCV40 in bass tone (but NOT in volume; it would take about 100-200 watts of solid state bass amp to do that). If I owned a guitar amp that used 10" speakers, such as the YCV40T, then I would consider the Eminence 102 speaker if I was mainly interested in guitar tone. The B102 is simply the bass speaker that was designed to be the bass players mate to the Eminence 102. The 102 will set you back less money than a Celestion because it is domestic production. It should remove some of the Marshall "brown sound" and lend a bit of Fender tone to the AVT20 as well, just like my B102 did.
I would also plan on putting some Acousta-Stuf damping fiber in any closed back guitar cabinet to prevent resonant peaks and echo distortion back through the speaker cone. That and the Scan-Speak vent made a tremendous difference, and my father noticed the improvement right away. In a larger room than I have in my apartment, the original resonant peak I had in the untreated cabinet is virtually gone (half the problem is my small practice room) and the tone is much smoother and cleaner now. Like a fine audiophile loudspeaker, the B102 takes a lot of breaking in and loosening of the suspension to sound its best. That's because the AVT20 doesn't put out enough power to really exercise the B102 suspension and break it in quickly. A pair of B102's should turn a YCV40T into a real heavy sounding combo for a music style that depends on a solid bottom and very little speaker distortion. My father liked the sound of his Washburn "Delta King" guitar (ES-335 copy) through my AVT20/B102 combo because of the superior bottom it now has compared to the cheapo Celestion with dinky magnet that Marshall installs as standard equipment. Marshall installs that speaker to make the distortion kick in at a lower sound level and lend a bit of the old Greenback sound. Rickenbacker guitarists will want something cleaner in most cases.
I would also plan on putting some Acousta-Stuf damping fiber in any closed back guitar cabinet to prevent resonant peaks and echo distortion back through the speaker cone. That and the Scan-Speak vent made a tremendous difference, and my father noticed the improvement right away. In a larger room than I have in my apartment, the original resonant peak I had in the untreated cabinet is virtually gone (half the problem is my small practice room) and the tone is much smoother and cleaner now. Like a fine audiophile loudspeaker, the B102 takes a lot of breaking in and loosening of the suspension to sound its best. That's because the AVT20 doesn't put out enough power to really exercise the B102 suspension and break it in quickly. A pair of B102's should turn a YCV40T into a real heavy sounding combo for a music style that depends on a solid bottom and very little speaker distortion. My father liked the sound of his Washburn "Delta King" guitar (ES-335 copy) through my AVT20/B102 combo because of the superior bottom it now has compared to the cheapo Celestion with dinky magnet that Marshall installs as standard equipment. Marshall installs that speaker to make the distortion kick in at a lower sound level and lend a bit of the old Greenback sound. Rickenbacker guitarists will want something cleaner in most cases.
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toneman
There's one big factor you need to consider in all this stuff. Since Marshall, Traynor, etc. are in the business of manufacturing and selling, most of the items they buy are not bought on tonality but on Cost! The main reason items are bought from certain places is that they put in the lowest bid for the most quanity. This is the norm and not the exception when building audio in a manufacturing enviroment.
Year ago when I was at SWR when it was still the original company, the owner bought a lesser power tranny for the Workingman's 12. Even though a totally bullet-proof one could have been made for only $1.00 more per tranny, the owner opted for the lesser cost item. now, this really backfired on the guy as after about a 1 1/2 they were sending out around 3-4 replacement tranny's a week for that model.
I know Celestion has discontinued certain speakers and probably because they are setting up a number of lines in China to make most of their speakers. Only certain high cost speakers will still be made in England. Most lower end, less costly speakers have been built in China over the last 3-4 years. But... most of those lines have a quality factor that exceeds the U.K. for the same item and the factories are state of the art in China!
Anyway, the bottom line is how much it costs to build. This is the main reason that the botique lines have a better product as they charge more and in return you get a hand crafted high quality amp in place of a "name brand" mass produced. Marshall at one time was building only 5-6 amps a week in 1963.
Year ago when I was at SWR when it was still the original company, the owner bought a lesser power tranny for the Workingman's 12. Even though a totally bullet-proof one could have been made for only $1.00 more per tranny, the owner opted for the lesser cost item. now, this really backfired on the guy as after about a 1 1/2 they were sending out around 3-4 replacement tranny's a week for that model.
I know Celestion has discontinued certain speakers and probably because they are setting up a number of lines in China to make most of their speakers. Only certain high cost speakers will still be made in England. Most lower end, less costly speakers have been built in China over the last 3-4 years. But... most of those lines have a quality factor that exceeds the U.K. for the same item and the factories are state of the art in China!
Anyway, the bottom line is how much it costs to build. This is the main reason that the botique lines have a better product as they charge more and in return you get a hand crafted high quality amp in place of a "name brand" mass produced. Marshall at one time was building only 5-6 amps a week in 1963.
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toneman
There's one big factor you need to consider in all this stuff. Since Marshall, Traynor, etc. are in the business of manufacturing and selling, most of the items they buy are not bought on tonality but on Cost! The main reason items are bought from certain places is that they put in the lowest bid for the most quanity. This is the norm and not the exception when building audio in a manufacturing enviroment.
Years ago when I was at SWR when it was still the original company, the owner bought a lesser power tranny for the Workingman's 12. Even though a totally bullet-proof one could have been made for only $1.00 more per tranny, the owner opted for the lesser cost item. now, this really backfired on the guy as after about a 1 1/2 they were sending out around 3-4 replacement tranny's a week for that model.
I know Celestion has discontinued certain speakers and probably because they are setting up a number of lines in China to make most of their speakers. Only certain high cost speakers will still be made in England. Most lower end, less costly speakers have been built in China over the last 3-4 years. But... most of those lines have a quality factor that exceeds the U.K. for the same item and the factories are state of the art in China!
Anyway, the bottom line is how much it costs to build. This is the main reason that the botique lines have a better product as they charge more and in return you get a hand crafted high quality amp in place of a "name brand" mass produced. Marshall at one time was building only 5-6 amps a week in 1963.
Years ago when I was at SWR when it was still the original company, the owner bought a lesser power tranny for the Workingman's 12. Even though a totally bullet-proof one could have been made for only $1.00 more per tranny, the owner opted for the lesser cost item. now, this really backfired on the guy as after about a 1 1/2 they were sending out around 3-4 replacement tranny's a week for that model.
I know Celestion has discontinued certain speakers and probably because they are setting up a number of lines in China to make most of their speakers. Only certain high cost speakers will still be made in England. Most lower end, less costly speakers have been built in China over the last 3-4 years. But... most of those lines have a quality factor that exceeds the U.K. for the same item and the factories are state of the art in China!
Anyway, the bottom line is how much it costs to build. This is the main reason that the botique lines have a better product as they charge more and in return you get a hand crafted high quality amp in place of a "name brand" mass produced. Marshall at one time was building only 5-6 amps a week in 1963.
I am not too impressed with the build quality of my AVT20B, except for the Eminence B102 speaker I put in. It DOES sound good however, and the impregnated paper circuit board should last as long as it isn't handled too roughly. The Eminence B102 speaker is closer to an Electro-Voice or Lowther speaker in build quality than it is to a Celestion. I can't remember EVER seeing a cast aluminum frame on a Celestion, even the Alnico Blue unit they sell here at $295 retail, and the stamped steel frame is no better on it than on my Celestion Seventy 80 speaker in my Traynor. I do not consider the Marshall AVT20/AVT50 and Traynor YCV40 anywhere near equal on build quality. The Traynor's birch plywood cabinet is near boutique quality, and the glass epoxy circuit board seems durable. I would say the Seventy 80 speaker is close to a Greenback in magnet weight and sound quality. Traynor raised their MSRP on the YCV40 by $100 recently, and I knew that was coming as soon as their reputation and popularity grew. It's still no more than a Fender Deluxe Reverb, and it's quite a bit more amp. The Marshall engineers are to be commended for getting good sound from component parts that look like they belong in a television set, and the ValveState hybrid technology really is the closest thing to pure tubes that I ever heard in a hybrid amp. In fact, it sounds better than some pure tube amps. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the YCV40 is a hybrid amp also (but way more tube oriented than Marshall). There are more transistors, diodes, and IC's by far in the YCV40 than there are tubes. Because it sounds so good, people automatically assume it is pure tube. It would need 6 or more extra tubes if it were, in order to still do what it does now. The output tube auto bias circuit and regulated preamp filaments are two examples, and are good examples of what solid state can accomplish better and cheaper than if it were done by tubes. I buy my Tung-Sol 5881's in unmatched singles at a cheap price, so that feature has more than paid for itself already. How many boutique amps have that feature at ANY price? It would not matter much to you, as you can do your own testing, matching, and biasing of tubes. The average guitarist needs that feature, especially if he grabs desireable and rare NOS output tubes anywhere he finds them. I once stumbled across a nice pair of NOS RCA 6L6GC tubes in a stash of old TV parts, and I got them as a freebie because the parts were being tossed. A speaker and tube swap practically raises the YCV40 into boutique amp territory as far as tone goes. My father marveled at how it made every guitar he played through it (RIC, Gretsch, Washburn) sound better than he had ever heard them before. Granted, the best he had ever played before was something like a Fender or Ampeg tube amp, and not a boutique rig. The YCV40 has him wanting to sell his old Peavey amp and getting something similar to my Traynor in tone, but smaller, as he only plays at home now and the Peavey is way too loud. The YCV20 is much harder to find used and almost the price of a YCV40. The Gibson GA-15 or GA-15RV Goldtone is another top contender and seems almost boutique quality.
Two of those amps built in one of those Chinese factories you mentioned would be the Epiphone Galaxie 10 and Galaxie 25. They might have a lot of the Goldtone vibe at a peanuts price.
Inexpensive tube bass practice combos are not nearly as easy to find, and less portable than their guitar counterparts. Thus my interest in the AVT20, as it's the next best thing to a little tube bass practice amp that nobody seems to want to build. All it needed was a speaker mod.
Two of those amps built in one of those Chinese factories you mentioned would be the Epiphone Galaxie 10 and Galaxie 25. They might have a lot of the Goldtone vibe at a peanuts price.
Inexpensive tube bass practice combos are not nearly as easy to find, and less portable than their guitar counterparts. Thus my interest in the AVT20, as it's the next best thing to a little tube bass practice amp that nobody seems to want to build. All it needed was a speaker mod.