A Pub On Every Corner Revisited

admin · Post by **admin** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:15 am

A number of articles written about the city life of Liverpool, especially in the 1960s, have commented on there being "a pub on every corner." While this is perhaps an exaggeration, it certainly makes the point that there were a fair number of smaller establishments that made their living by selling alcohol.

My question is, what was the role of the Liverpool pub, directly or indirectly, in fostering music of the 1960s? Were these establishments responsible in the success of performers or was it the larger venues and promotoers that played this role in Liverpool?

winston · Post by **winston** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:18 am

When I first started out playing gigs in Southern England, many of our "engagements" were playing at workmens clubs. I never did play any pubs. In fact I don't recall any groups playing at the pubs. It was always a solitary piano player that I ran into.

Was it like that in Liverpool? Does anyone know?

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:44 pm

I was in Liverpool in '82. One big giant ghost town!

martin_dodd · Post by **martin_dodd** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:49 am

Hi Peter/All
That’s a very good question.

The music scene back in those days was mainly dominated by a youth type culture. This was inspired by Lonnie Donegan and his hit record Rock Island Line which was released in 1956.

Around this time also skiffle groups were springing up all over Merseyside, but most of these bands had formed via mates from School or had met at the local youth club.

Gerry Marsden once said they used to take old songs like Jambalaya and kind of skiffle it up.

Another instance of this was, I was talking to Maureen the sister of Ray Ennis of The Swinging Blue Jeans a few years ago now and she was telling me how she remembers them starting out during the skiffle craze.

I think the culture as regards groups meeting and forming and places where they would meet up has changed a lot over the years. So in a nutshell I think it was mainly the big promoters of the day, people like Sam Leach and Bob Wooler,who were fundamentally responsible for Mersey beat. You have to remember that around this time places like The Cavern did not sell alcohol and the likes of The Beatles, Swinging Blue Jeans and The Searchers, would leave The Cavern during there breaks from playing or after a gig. They would take a shortcut up the back of an alley, which I believe is now to the left of Cavern Walks to either The Grapes or The White Star and then go back just before they were due to go back on stage.

Obviously if it was after a gig they would stager home.

Cheers Folks,
Martin

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:22 am

Thanks Martin, your comments are appreciated and I expect will generate considerable discussion as a result.

The promoters probably had the greatest impact. Your point with regard to Sam Leach is well taken and surely he was responsible for the "Big Venue" and "Rock Around The Clock" affairs during which groups gained much exposure. A club that comes to mind for me is the Iron Door Club that saw as many as 1200 or so patrons attend the all night events.

It would also seem that the pubs were a "proving ground" of sorts that allowed upstarts to hone their skills by performing before enthusiastic fans and learning from other artists, exchanging lyrics, guitar riffs, harmonies and the like. The Searchers' John McNally has spoken of developing his rhythm style by listening to an amateur in one of Liverpool's pubs during the early 1960s. As a further example, George Harrison and Paul McCartney took in Colin Manley whenever they could in local pubs as they learned much from his flambouyant guitar style of the day.

So in the indirect sense, the Casbah, the Iron Door Club, the Blue Angel, to name only a few, along with the Cavern allowed groups to "skiffle it up" as mentioned by "Marsden."

Today, groups may rehearse in a basement, hall or garage in preparation for an upcoming event. In the Invasion and pre-Invasion days of Liverpool it seems that small pubs or clubs served up an enthusiastic audience of teens often during lunchtime periods and also were venues to perform and practice. These informal performances may have been more band practices and jam sessions than polished performances.

In the end, the corner pub may have been a place for performers to "hang their hat" while entertaining pub customers as well. Certainly the owners would have loved this type of climate. In an indirect way they may have been a support system for young artists to grow and a dynamic advert for their talents.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:55 am

Sounds like a wonderful time/place in history. A breeding ground of creativity!

martin_dodd · Post by **martin_dodd** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:22 am

In reply To Brian Medway(Winston)Message Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 05:18 pm:
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Hi Brian
There are still a lot of Pubs like that around Liverpool where they have the good old Open Microphone session. The odd few pubs nowadays do have groups on but back then it was pretty much the same as where you are from.

So as you say in the main the groups played the big Dance Halls and Working Mens Clubs etc.

Martin

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:28 am

Martin: I believe that Cilla Black was discovered at one of the "good old open microphone sessions." Are there any modern day examples of this of which you are aware?

martin_dodd · Post by **martin_dodd** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:16 am

In reply to Peter McCormack message Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 09:28 am:
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Not that I know of Peter, maybe Sonia who may of you may remember as the 80s hit maker,she had a hit with her cover version of The Real Thing - "You To Me Are Everything" (1989)

From what I hear from people around the Walton in Liverpool area where Sonia was born(Evans)she was known to be a bit of a songbird a bit like our Cilla. However her first glint of stardom was In 1988, she appeared in the TV series "Bread" as Joey Boswell's girlfriend.

Then of course also one of the girls from Liverpool won Pop Idol a few years ago and is now a successful member of Girls Aloud.

But no one quite as big as our Cilla!

Martin

winston · Post by **winston** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:14 am

Thanks for the information Martin. So it was pretty much the same music atmosphere as Southampton then. Workmens clubs, private clubs hotels and ballrooms were the staple of our engagements. Cinemas were also used as venues, but in my experience they only ever hosted the top groups who had made it.

hamilton_square · Post by **hamilton_square** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:39 pm

Peter (Admin) wrote in his post of 20 June 2006

“So in the indirect sense, the Casbah, the Iron Door Club, the Blue Angel, to name only a few, along with the Cavern allowed groups to "skiffle it up" as mentioned by "Marsden."

Peter (Admin) – Exactly, but with one exception.

The Casbah, IDC and Cavern all had one thing in common. They didn’t have licences to sell alcohol therefore, no problems catering for audiences and groups alike under the UK legal drinking age of 18. However, the Blue Angel was something entirely different.

Located in Seel Street, the ‘Blue’ before it became the ‘Blue’ went by the name of the Wyvern Social Club. Now, you’ve got to try and understand that back then licensing laws governing the sale of beer and spirits dictated that public houses [pubs] and other licensed premises were required to cease the sale of intoxicating liquors come 10.30pm. However, there was provision made for certain non-public house venues to continue the sale past this 10.30pm curfew and into the small hours of the following day. These establishments were euphemistically known as ‘Social Clubs’. The general legal conditions of non-payment entry being a) over the age of 18 b) a registered member for a least 24 hours and c) if not a registered member then in the invited company of a registered member.

The principal guy fronting the Blue Angel was one Allan Williams. A well-known Liverpool-Welsh clubland entrepreneur who, roundabout this time had his fingers in many a pie, so to speak. It was rumoured that he wasn’t entirely alone when it came to financing this particular venture but exactly who were his silent partners was never public knowledge. Behind the hand whispers of tax evasion were commonly cited reasons for such secrecy.

Having been chosen for it central Liverpool City location and because of Allan Williams clubland connections, the deliberately targeted late-night thirsty clientele [re: members] that the Blue Angel was looking to attract were in the main the very Liverpool groups themselves, plus of course there female companions. Being that previously there had been no such an after-hours establishment were people with common musical interests could meet up sociably after ‘gigging’ was done to ‘chew-the-fat’.

Just like the area’s early 60s music scene, the Blue Angel was a direct socially related Liverpool club phenomena. Once the majority of the big-named groups had quickly moved on to seek their fame and fortune elsewhere and their younger replacements were found to be of inferior quality. The whole movement and ergo the Blue Angel, lost impetus and rather swiftly conceded the fight to London (supported to a lesser degree by Manchester). Who, led by the likes of the Rolling Stones, Kinks, Who, Small Faces, Dave Clark 5 together with the Hollies and Herman’s Hermits, were finally getting their backsides into gear following this three something short years of Liverpool domination.

13_temple_street · Post by **13_temple_street** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:27 am

Peter the Iron Door was a licenced club when it first opened in 1960.
We promoted rock & roll from the very begining,every Monday evening was rock night at the club,we started promoting and encouraging beat music at the patrons request every Sunday afternoon May 15th 1960 was a first for this event Cass & the Cassanovas plus the Beatles (Silver Beetles).Rory Storm was also a regular band to play there.
Under the licencing laws,in our particular case we had to clear the tables of all bottles and glasses before five minutes to ten in the evening the bar had to be closed by ten o clock.
I remember Alan Williams coming into the Iron Door one afternoon with George Williams (Zodiac manager in Duke Street)enquiring how to apply for a drinks licence for the Blue Angel.
I cannot remember at any time promoting skiffle at the club.

hamilton_square · Post by **hamilton_square** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:26 am

Geoff - thanks a lot for taking the trouble to put me straight. I was vaguely aware that prior to the enlargement of the Iron Door, the club did indeed have a drinks licence. However, I wasn’t quite sure if the licence remained in force after the club had been re-opened.

”I cannot remember at any time promoting skiffle at the club.”

Geoff – Not for one moment did I think you considered such a course of action, for by 1960 Skiffle was way past its sell-by-date in terms of popularity. I think what Peter (Admin) was attempting to convey when he borrowed the phrase “skiffle it up” was the willingness of certain people, such as yourself, to take chances by giving previously novice talent the opportunity to move off the bottom rung of the musical ladder, so to speak. Skiffle being, for many of them, their first experience of collectively playing as a live unit and therefore, due to the makeshift nature of the genre, the lowest rung on the musical ladder at the time from which to start climbing.