I remember back around 1970 when Avery Fisher sold Fisher Radio to Sanyo for about $30M+. Sanyo kept an American address, first in New York then in California, and listed it on the back of the product. Somewhere else on back it said "Made in Japan". Maybe. In 1974 I bought a Fisher receiver and two speakers based on Fisher's past reputation built on American gear. The receiver ******* out after about a year, and the speakers suffered speakercoil burnout at a party. The receiver circuit design was poor and sounded nothing like a vintage Fisher. When I disassembled the speakers several years later and installed new drivers, I tore down one woofer and discovered the voice coil was wound on a thin paper form similar to a piece of very thin toilet paper tube. Before the speakers blew up, I could switch to mono and then switch between left and right speakers while listening to music. There was a very definite difference in the tonal balance, especially in the midrange. I remember that new midranges from Fisher only cost about $4.95 each, so they were definitely junky quality. I replaced the woofers with Radio Shack units that were better made, but far from great. The point is that consumer ripoff has been going on a long time as far as taking a good name based on past accomplishments and selling cheap junk under that name to create demand and increase the profit margin. The guitar industry is no exception, and actually quite small in relation to the general consumer electronic industry and companies such as Sanyo that are international giants. How many people bought Fisher, Sherwood, H.H. Scott, Marantz, RCA, Zenith, and a host of other electronic brands for years after they ceased domestic manufacture, thinking they were still getting an American product? Hey, I still get questions from some old folks wanting to know if RCA and Zenith TV sets are still American made!
However, the strange thing these days is that in instances such as Korean Washburns, Japanese Epiphones, and Mexican Fenders, you are getting a BETTER product than if they were made in the USA now at anywhere near the same price.
It kinda makes you wonder why Washburn even bothered to tear out the "Made in Korea" labels, doesn't it?
In really cheap instruments, being made overseas in low labor cost countries actually improves the product. I am curious about the Japanese Epiphones, however, as Japanese labor costs are as high as our own. If they can turn out an Epiphone Elite that is as good or better than a Tennessee Gibson, then that says something REALLY bad about the way Gibson is running their domestic manufacturing/sales operations. In light of all I am hearing, I intend to avoid new Gibsons like the plague.
Off topic-Epiphone Elite Series Guitars!
Moderator: jingle_jangle
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ricnvolved
My P-bass was a 1975 production model. The workmanship was not good. The neck was bowed near the heel and the body edges had ripples in the wood that were noticeable up close. The finish was OK. A MIM standard P-bass of recent production would probably beat it in about every way. I remember paying well over $400 for it with case in early 1976. About what you pay for a MIM P-bass now. The Aerodyne Jazz Bass has caught my eye, and I believe it is made in Japan, so the workmanship should be good. MF has them for $630, same as the Geddy Lee Jazz Bass that's made in Japan. Does anybody know how these two Japanese Fenders compare against each other? The Aerodyne has P-J pickups and lightweight sculpted basswood body, so it interests me the most. The Badass II bridge and black inlays on the Geddy Lee Jazz Bass are also nice. The H-C reviews generally say the Geddy bass is better than the standard American Jazz basses in workmanship. Maybe that will carry over to the Aerodyne. Almost picked up the phone and ordered a Geddy Lee the other day, but bought another SansAmp RBI instead. Amp Tone comes before bass collecting. Now I have my eye on a couple of Stewart World Series stereo amps. Made in USA, of course, the way the best state-of-the-art electronics usually are. I feel this is more true of modern electronics than guitars. We're not talking Tube 12 guitar amps here. Bass tone is much more demanding of the amp. Bass players have yet to be handed a $500 jewel the way Traynor YCV40 owners have been.
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toneman
The Epiphone Elite (or now known as Elitest..) are made in the Terada Factory in Japan which is the premire archtop and solid body factory in Japan. Do not confuse this line with the lower line Korean made stuff. What comes out of this factory is, in my opinion, better than what comes off the regular Gibson line in Nashville. They also make all of the guitars for Gretsch at this factory! They make a number of other brands too but Gretsch and Gibson/Epiphone are their mainstay.
Fender-Japan is made at the Fu Gin Gakki factory with is also a upper class guitar manufacture.
It's sad to say but the Japanese have become better at building American guitars that most US makers(not all!)
The Elite Les Paul is almost as good as a Custom Shop instrument but at a price that's around 75% less. Sure, there's somethings that I personally have to do to them to bring them up to my requirements but I'm sure most would be pleased with them right out of the case.
In the case of all three guitars I have replaced a number of things: on all three I replaced all pots, switches and jacks with CTS and Switchcraft stuff. The P-90's on the Casino were fine as is as they were made at Gibson. On the `61 SG I replaced the pickups with a set of Antiquity's I had gotten from Seymour about 10 years ago.(but the guitar came with Gibson's `57 Classic's) On the LP I used one's that a guy named Jim Wagner made called "Fillmore's". I replaced the bridges on all with the "TonePro's" AVR-II locking ABR-1 clone and on the LP and SG I used their locking Lightweight aluminium tailpiece.
But, even after including all this stuff I still spent less that what a Norlin made Les Paul was going for in the mid seventies and as a bonus I got a guitar that is built more correc than those Norlin made one's. The binding in the cutaway is the small type, the neck is one piece African mahogany(which Gibson would use in addition to the Honduran type in the fifties and early sixties). The body is a bookmatched solid African mahogany and the top is a two piece bookmatched maple. The peghead is the correct vintage angle and the neck tennon is the long, vintage style as well. All the things that Norlin didn't do on L.P.'s that were done when CMI built them in the fifties.
One thing that gets me though is why everyone complains about guitars that are made overseas that use to be made here but..Nobody complains when they buy a Vox or Marshall or Orange, etc. amp that's made in the U.K. It's very much becoming more of a global community than regional when it comes to musical equipment. I bet most of you don't even know that over half of the entire Celestion speaker production/line is manufactured in China. The Alnico Blues are made in the U.K.(and always will be I was told) but alot of other guitar speakers are made in China and even more will be made there by this time next year. Do you think that everyone who walked thru the front door at the Kalamazoo Gibson plant in the fifties and sixties knew how to make guitars when they started working there?? No. They were trained same as the people who build guitars in Japan, Mexico or anywhere else a manufacture decides to set up a new shop. The Japanese started copying American guitars back in the mid fifties and have gotten extremly good at their craft.
While I'm at it.. Fender had a big strike in early 1975 as they were at that time a Union plant. They didn't get what they wanted out of the strike but went back to work with some things they had asked for but alot of the workers were unhappy. They built mediocere guitars for a whileafter than. This is when the famous "Fender S-curve neck" came along...I know as I was an authorized Fender repairman.
Fender-Japan is made at the Fu Gin Gakki factory with is also a upper class guitar manufacture.
It's sad to say but the Japanese have become better at building American guitars that most US makers(not all!)
The Elite Les Paul is almost as good as a Custom Shop instrument but at a price that's around 75% less. Sure, there's somethings that I personally have to do to them to bring them up to my requirements but I'm sure most would be pleased with them right out of the case.
In the case of all three guitars I have replaced a number of things: on all three I replaced all pots, switches and jacks with CTS and Switchcraft stuff. The P-90's on the Casino were fine as is as they were made at Gibson. On the `61 SG I replaced the pickups with a set of Antiquity's I had gotten from Seymour about 10 years ago.(but the guitar came with Gibson's `57 Classic's) On the LP I used one's that a guy named Jim Wagner made called "Fillmore's". I replaced the bridges on all with the "TonePro's" AVR-II locking ABR-1 clone and on the LP and SG I used their locking Lightweight aluminium tailpiece.
But, even after including all this stuff I still spent less that what a Norlin made Les Paul was going for in the mid seventies and as a bonus I got a guitar that is built more correc than those Norlin made one's. The binding in the cutaway is the small type, the neck is one piece African mahogany(which Gibson would use in addition to the Honduran type in the fifties and early sixties). The body is a bookmatched solid African mahogany and the top is a two piece bookmatched maple. The peghead is the correct vintage angle and the neck tennon is the long, vintage style as well. All the things that Norlin didn't do on L.P.'s that were done when CMI built them in the fifties.
One thing that gets me though is why everyone complains about guitars that are made overseas that use to be made here but..Nobody complains when they buy a Vox or Marshall or Orange, etc. amp that's made in the U.K. It's very much becoming more of a global community than regional when it comes to musical equipment. I bet most of you don't even know that over half of the entire Celestion speaker production/line is manufactured in China. The Alnico Blues are made in the U.K.(and always will be I was told) but alot of other guitar speakers are made in China and even more will be made there by this time next year. Do you think that everyone who walked thru the front door at the Kalamazoo Gibson plant in the fifties and sixties knew how to make guitars when they started working there?? No. They were trained same as the people who build guitars in Japan, Mexico or anywhere else a manufacture decides to set up a new shop. The Japanese started copying American guitars back in the mid fifties and have gotten extremly good at their craft.
While I'm at it.. Fender had a big strike in early 1975 as they were at that time a Union plant. They didn't get what they wanted out of the strike but went back to work with some things they had asked for but alot of the workers were unhappy. They built mediocere guitars for a whileafter than. This is when the famous "Fender S-curve neck" came along...I know as I was an authorized Fender repairman.
Yeah Don.....the 'Global Economy'....jeeeze.
Read that as Chinese economy. Why should the rest of the world have to descend to their level?
There are plenty of folks that can/would make guitars or whatever if these mfgrs would pay a living wage...but they won't because the way this country's trade policys and laws are.
Don't even get me started about the illegals.
One of these days, it's all gonna come crashing (the rest) of the way down and everyone's gonna wonder what the hell happened.
I'll be dead by then....I hope!!
Musical instruments are a microcosm of what's really happening.
Read that as Chinese economy. Why should the rest of the world have to descend to their level?
There are plenty of folks that can/would make guitars or whatever if these mfgrs would pay a living wage...but they won't because the way this country's trade policys and laws are.
Don't even get me started about the illegals.
One of these days, it's all gonna come crashing (the rest) of the way down and everyone's gonna wonder what the hell happened.
I'll be dead by then....I hope!!
Musical instruments are a microcosm of what's really happening.
I've had 4 wives but I still have my 60' 360!
It's even happening in biomedical instrumentation, Dave. Us insiders call it the "televisionization" of biomedical instrumentation. All kinds of glitches and unreliable operation are becoming more commonplace as cheaper products are rushed to market with less R&D time and cheaper construction methods in order to lower costs.
While more work is heading overseas, the CEO's seem to be getting bigger bonuses as they run businesses into the ground.
While more work is heading overseas, the CEO's seem to be getting bigger bonuses as they run businesses into the ground.
You know, you can read how Gretsch, Fender, Gibson and many others built cruddy instruments at some point in their histories. One manufacturer that is NOT mentioned with those is Rickenbacker. They are ALL American made and have been in the same family since '53. The factory is always up to it's ying yang in orders. Thats saying something..........
Somebody on eBay just got a near mint '93 RIC 220 in blue with black hardware and case for $431. That's around the cost of a MIM Fender Tele and a lot better investment. I've been waiting on my Fireglo 650C since winter, or I would have bid on it. Maybe I will ge a shot a a 230 or 260 in similar condition some day. There was also a nice 480 for sale, for about the same price as many imports.
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toneman
Phillip; don't feel bad about the wait. I've been waiting on a 360C63/12 for over two years now.... It's even been paid for. I've got the cancelled checks to prove it..LOL! I just wish I could get the guitar soon. I've almost given up hope of Rickenbacker building these.
Maybe my buddy Nick Thiel could let us in on what's happening with this model...
Maybe my buddy Nick Thiel could let us in on what's happening with this model...
Well, bass is my primary concern, and I lucked out and got a nice '93 4004L for the cost of a heavily discounted American Standard Jazz Bass. My 650D keeps me happy until the 650C arrives. Now I am looking for a backup bass until the day when I can get another used 4004L in Fireglo. The H-C reviews seem to say that the OLP MM4 is equal to just about any other bass at 2 to 3 times the price. I would NEVER pay the cost of an EB MusicMan or Custom Shop Jazz because I feel at that price point there is: 1) A 4004L in Fireglo, and 2) any number of really modern basses that blow away the equivalent of a Strat body with 4 fat strings and a longer neck.
I talked to Aaron at Bass Northwest the other day, and when I mentioned I had a 4004L, he said that Rickenbacker put out an excellent bass at a very reasonable price for the build quality. They had only two RIC basses listed in stock (4001 & 4003), and a ton of other brands. He couldn't remember when they last had a 4004L. I heard that Timothy B. Schmidt was really fond of his early model 4004L. Because of the peculiar neck pickup location, the early 4004L may become an extremely desireable model. The tone is unique and is well liked by many who otherwise don't care for the other RIC basses.
I already had a P-bass, and while it is a good tone for playing in a band, for playing alone it lacks versatility and fails to move my monkeybone like the 4004L does. The J-bass lacks heft in the tone compared to the 4004L, but I would prefer it to the P-bass. The OLP MM4 supposedly has a lot of heft, but I have never heard one, but if it really sounds like a MusicMan it will do OK for me.
I talked to Aaron at Bass Northwest the other day, and when I mentioned I had a 4004L, he said that Rickenbacker put out an excellent bass at a very reasonable price for the build quality. They had only two RIC basses listed in stock (4001 & 4003), and a ton of other brands. He couldn't remember when they last had a 4004L. I heard that Timothy B. Schmidt was really fond of his early model 4004L. Because of the peculiar neck pickup location, the early 4004L may become an extremely desireable model. The tone is unique and is well liked by many who otherwise don't care for the other RIC basses.
I already had a P-bass, and while it is a good tone for playing in a band, for playing alone it lacks versatility and fails to move my monkeybone like the 4004L does. The J-bass lacks heft in the tone compared to the 4004L, but I would prefer it to the P-bass. The OLP MM4 supposedly has a lot of heft, but I have never heard one, but if it really sounds like a MusicMan it will do OK for me.
I surfed the OLP website, and it seems the Harmony Central listing of the OLP basses is wrong. MM4 and MM5 are NOT the model numbers of the 4 and 5-string OLP basses. MM2 is the 4-string version and MM-3 is the 5-string version. The MM4 is a 6-string guitar and the MM5 is a baritone guitar. You would think OLP would have labeled them more logically. Musician's Friend labels the 4-string correctly as the MM2 and has them in stock @ $229.99 in Pearl Blue or Black. That's the one I ordered. The MM1 is an Eddie Van Halen copy and Musician's Friend has it on sale right now in Black Sparkle for $179.99. It gets very good reviews as well. Would be nice for a young player that can't afford an MIM Strat. They also have the Epiphone Les Paul Special II on sale in Black for $179.99 as well. Either one and a Kustom Tube 12 @ $80 would set a young player up really well for under $300. Kustom needs to crank out a bass version of the Tube 12 to sell for around $100-$150.
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bogner