British Drummers

M.Light · Post by **M.Light** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 2:40 am

Some food for thought re British drummers. I have a theory that I've mulled over for some time and the recent topic about Pete Best and some postings on "VoxTalks" re Ringo have got me thinking about this again. There are a large number of British drummers who tend to adhere to a particular stylistic approach to playing. It's characterized largely by playing "behind" the beat-the "beat" meaning the strict, metronomic center of the tempo. In listening through the years, I've realized that only drummers from England play this way. It gives a particular feel and groove to a song. It tends to not be strict time-which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a good groove! The tendency is to lay back on the verses,sometimes pushing at the end of the verse anticipating the chorus, and the chorus would generally be more on top of the beat. I can think of lots of English drummers who play this way, but I can't think of one American drummer who does. I think the British were very influenced by a lot of the black American drummers they heard on early rock-n-roll and r&b/blues records of the 50s & 60s, and subconsciously copied the style. Now it seems to be ingrained and has showed up in younger English drummers who've come up in the 70s & 80s(not a bad thing!). Guys like Earl Palmer, Bernard Purdie, the Motown drummers and many others whose names I can't now recall were more influential in England than they were in America. It's just like the Beatles who were basically just playing their version of American R&B back at us-and we thought it was something new cause it sounded so foreign and we were used to hearing Frankie Avalon and Pat Boone! You could only hear R&B on a few radio stations in the early 60's. Most white kids never heard the real thing. Anyway, that's my theory. The following is just a short list of British drummers who play the "behind the beat" style: Ringo; Charlie Watts; Roger Taylor; Phil Collins; John Bonham; Aynsley Dunbar; Kenny Jones; Simon Kirke; Dave Clarke; Ginger Baker; Ian Paice; Graeham Edge; Woody Woodmansey; Mick Avory; Bev Bevan; Nick Mason; Mitch Mitchell and Martin Chambers. I'd be interested in your ideas on this and if you can come with some I haven't thought of and if you know any American drummers who play this style. The only one I 've heard is Tom Ardolino from NRBQ.........

Marcel_Daguerre · Post by **Marcel_Daguerre** » Thu Jan 11, 2001 3:54 pm

I think the source of this style or feel is Jazz - most famously Count Basie. That would explain the r&b/blues influence. I once asked Louie Bellson about playing behind the beat, and he said that Count taught his guys to play exactly on the beat - that the effect was achieved not by actually playing behind the beat but by playing right on top of it. I guess it sounds behind because our ear is used to people playing ever-so-slightly ahead. Can't say I've noticed this in British drummers more than others though. But thanks for mentioning it because I'll sure look for it now.

M.Light · Post by **M.Light** » Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:34 pm

Thanx Marcel. Yes, I believe you may be right. I would guess that style came from jazz and the swing that is so much required in that music. The early R&B drummers probably absorbed that from jazz. A big part of swing is that ebb & flow, sometimes behind, sometimes on top, etc. It's not strict time and is not meant to be. In jazz they would alter the rhythm the same way they would change the harmonic & melodic content-often changing it drastically every time they played a particular piece. You have a different angle on it that never occurred to me and it makes sense. There are a few examples that come to mind re the playing behind the beat. In Tumbling Dice by the Stones; in the outro of the song where it breaks down and the girls are singing "you got to roll me" over & over, suddenly Charlie Watts comes back in and he is clearly behind the previous tempo. It almost sounds like he's dragging it back! It's cool,though, it really fits the feel of the song. There are other songs where he does the same. In Brass in Pocket by The Pretenders, in the 3rd verse("got rhythm, can't miss the beat")- Martin Chambers sounds like he suddenly pulls the tempo back, quite behind the more uptempo chorus just previous. And it's funny, he does that right at the time Chrissie sings "can't miss the beat". I wonder if he did it intentionally or not. It's kind of a subtle thing and something non-musicians probably wouldn't notice. There are other examples (Queen,ELO,Zeppelin,etc) too numerous to go into here. I always enjoy noticing them and wonder if the bands noticed them at the time they were recording and liked and left them them in, or weren't really conscious of them-just a part of the groove & style they wanted. I wonder how many producers went "Hey, wait a minute, guys-this is is slowing down", but were overridden by band!

tom · Post by **tom** » Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:47 am

does anyone remember Bernard Purdie saying he did all of Ringo's and Charlie Watts drum parts on all the records ???
what was with that?
maybe he got them confused with Hermans Hermits or the Monkees???I could see him doing those...
Do you guys think he really did do some of Ringos and Charlies drum parts?

Marcel_Daguerre · Post by **Marcel_Daguerre** » Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:49 am

Given the distinctive nature of their playing and the video record of their live performances that are consistent with the style of playing on their recordings, it seems highly unlikely that anyone other than Ringo and Charlie are playing on the records they are credited with. I have no idea what Bernard's motivation would be for making such claims. Perhaps he is, as you suggest, confused.

M.Light · Post by **M.Light** » Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:23 pm

Yea-I remember reading that article with Purdie in Modern Drummer, i think, a few years ago. He basically said he played drums on most of the eraly Beatles stuff(I don't remember if he mentioned the Stones). He's a great drummer and I know he did a lot of sessions in the early 60s for some of the Invasion groups. I think he's confusing The Beatles with some of the lesser groups from that period. I'm sure to him they all looked and sounded alike. It's not music that he would normally be familiar with. I'm sure after 35+ years has passed and all the sessions he did that alot of the bands have all melded into a confused recollection for him; he's obviously lumped the Beatles in with all the other early 60s bands. I'm quite certain that Ringo is on all those tunes(except the single version of Love Me Do). If Bernard had played on those records you can be sure that we would've heard about it from other sources too- not just from Purdie.

tom · Post by **tom** » Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:41 am

With a name like Purrtttyy you know the guy is full of himself....

Ed · Post by Ed » Sun Mar 04, 2001 10:05 am

Since I'm having a problem getting on 'another forum, I'll ask this question here. Of all the drummers listed on this site, how would Chris Curtis, formerly of the Searchers rate? Just wondering?

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 8:56 am

Ed: The opinion you receive may vary from one group of fans to another. I would be grateful if you would also post this same question under The Searchers' Forum. My view is that Chris Curtis was a very creative drummer and used a number of percussive techniques that added much to the Searchers early music. I would rank him ahead of Pete Best and somewhat behind Ringo Starr with regard to drumming ability. His contribution was far greater as a singer and composer than Ringo. He was, at least in my consideration, the Don Henley of his day.