Roger and the dbl.bound Rick 360-12

[fatrat]

I remember reading years ago that McGuinn, had a Harrison dbl. bound FireGlo style Rick 12 after his first blonde 360-12 got stolen...or when the Byrds went to buy the Beatle gear, is that when he got the dbl. bound Rick , this has always benn confusing, I was under the impression that the rounded top 360s didnt come out til later that year or in 65??? did he use that Rick on any recordings.....also another thing....Harrison didnt use compression til later after he heard the Byrds stuff, what gave Roger the idea to start using it????
FATRAT

[larrywassgren]

Fat Rat, About 18 years ago I went to a shop called Axe-In-Hand in Illinois. The owner pulled out a fire-glo 360/12 O.S. from the 60's that had belonged to the lead guitarist of The Shadows Of Knight. He said that Jim McGuinn gave this guitar to Joe Kelley because he had liked the song Gloria so much. I had seen The Shadows Of Knight as a kid in the late 60's, and sure enough there was a double-bound fire-glo model on the stage behind Joe Kelley. He never picked it up and played it though! I remember this well because it was the Harrison 12 even back then. The owner of this shop was not a BS-er and I know this story is true. He wanted $2000 back then which was too much money for me at the time. Of course I wish now I could go back and do that one over. Anyway, I think this backs up what you claim about McGuinn having a fire-glo double bound 12.

[admin]

Larry: Are you sure that the guitar didn't belong to Jerry McGeorge?

[rick12dr]

Peter, the Rick I've seen Shadows rhythm guitarist
Jerry McGeorge is a roundtop 360-12 Fireglo with some rather stunning woodgrain on the top.You can tell this even from the small B&W pic of him with it on the back of the "Gloria" LP.But who's to say Jerry didn't own a doublebound as well?The story I've heard is that after McGuinn saw Harrison in Hard Days Night w/ the doublebound 360-12, he set out to get one just like it, but by later '64, Rick was shipping the "New style"
roundtop model, and that's what he had to settle for, as the doublebounds were not there at the moment, but not because they'd stopped making them; Rick was simply putting the newer 360s out.

[larrywassgren]

Peter, I'm absolutely certain it was Joe Kelley,
I remember it like it was yesterday. It was in Hayward, Wisconsin, about 50 miles south of where I live. A guy with money who owned a resort brought up a lot of great groups like the Shadows Of Knight, Stone Pony, Cryin' Shames, Buffalo Springfield, etc., and had them play in a tent.
My brother and I stood about 3 feet in front of Jerry McGeorge and we'll never forget that night. He was a fantastic rythmn guitar player. The fastest right arm I've ever seen! He really held the group together that night. They were great, but Joe Kelley didn't seem like he was too into it that night. I remember waiting for him to pick that double bound 12 up, it was on a stand behind him. But he never played it that night. This was probably 1967, maybe 1966. Then in '82 I was shown this same 360/12 O.S. that the dealer bought from Joe who needed the money at the time. Joe had told him that Jim McGuinn had given him the guitar because he liked Gloria. That's what I was told and I know this dealer was well respected, not the type to tell stories to up the price of his guitar. I tried to find out later where the guitar went, but he wouldn't reveal the name of his customer which I had to respect him for.

[fatrat]

larry,
thats a very cool story, I love the Shadows of Knight, I have both LPs on CDs, they're on Sundazed incase you want to order them them...
I maybe wrong but Im pretty sure that the Byrds went out right after seeing A HARD DAYS NIGHT....this would have been the spring of 64, I dont think the round tops were out yet were they??? and the Byrds wouldnt have had the pull in 64 at Rickenbacker to get an early round top prototype,Im not sure that they were even the Byrds yet, the Beefeaters or something like that, named after the gin or whatever it was??? I remember reading that McGuinn got the roundtop first, it got stolen, then Rickenbacker gave him the Dbl. Bound as a replacement, but these 60s group members always get this stuff all mixed up when they tell this stuff, so many drugs ago.....I would guess that his first was the dbl. bound Rick...who knows???
I wonder what happened to the Rick dbl.binding???
you still living out in the sticks Larry ???
FATRAT

[terry]

Yeah, and Johnny Marr supposedly owns an old McGuinn Rick which Marr is said to have acquired from Phil Manzanera. And Andrew Gold supposedly owns an old McGuinn Rick which is said to have been acquired from Jeffrey Foskett -- "the very one Jim Mcguinn played in the Byrds!" (Uh huh.)

Here is the quote from Bacon & Day's book in which McGuinn mentions briefly borrowing a Fireglo Rick 360/12 when he was between his first and second Mapleglo Rickenbacker 12-strings in 1966.

Quote:". . . I think I borrowed a fireglo 360 12-string [with 'old-style' body] until I could replace the first one with another rounded mapleglo 360/12 in 1966."

-- Roger McGuinn, March 1994
The Rickenbacker Book, Tony Bacon & Paul Day, page 44 Although the account of the Byrds Ricks found in Bacon & Day's book is inaccurate, misleading and fabricated rubbish for the most part, the photographic record does support the notion that McGuinn briefly played a Fireglo Rick 360/12 in The Byrds when he was between his first and second Mapleglo Rickenbacker 12-strings in early 1966 -- only it was a dark rounded new-style 360/12, not a double-bound 'old-style' 360/12.



Of course, it cannot be determined with absolute certainty from a few black & white photos that the dark rounded 360/12 McGuinn briefly played in early 1966 was Fireglo, or Autumnglo, or Burgundyglo, or "Greenglo," etc.; but it would not be unreasonable to assume that it was indeed Fireglo given the abundance of rounded new-style Fireglo 360/12s available and pouring out of the factory in 1966.

One would think, however, that McGuinn would return the borrowed 360/12 to the person he borrowed it from, rather than simply turn around and give it away to someone else "for a song," as it were.

And while some well-meaning people may strongly believe that they have (or had) an old Rickenbacker once belonging to McGuinn, until there is at least a shred of photographic evidence or other documentation linking such a guitar to McGuinn, much of the rumored "old McGuinn Rick" stuff which is passed off as fact is found to belong in the realm of unsubstantiated hearsay and "urban legend" when brought under close scrutiny.

Just my opinion.

[fatrat]

I just said I read it somewhere not that I knew it was a fact...and after reading that info, I was making an educated guess on what the model that McGuinn bought first, might have been.....
so when did McGuinn get his first Rick???
was it spring of 64 or fall of 64, did they have the rounded tops out yet at either time...did Mguinn not get one til 65???
I always assumed that the dbl. bounds were out in 64 and then in 65 they went to roundedtops???
Cool photos of the Byrds...see the Vox Beatle in the back ground, whos amp was that.....
FATRAT

[terry]

Fatrat: If you'd like to learn more about real McGuinn Ricks -- including McGuinn's first Rick, which was a 1964 rounded new-style Deluxe Mapleglo Model 360/12, thought to have been manufactured circa Sept/Oct 1964, and later modified to a custom-wired 3-pickup 370/12Byrd by the factory in February 1966 -- a good place to start might be here.

[larrywassgren]

What I know for certain is Joe Kelley owned a fire-glo double bound 60's Rickenbacker 12 string as I saw him with it back in about '66 or'67. I saw the guitar at Larry Hendrickson's Axe-In-Hand Guitar Shop in about '82. He was told by Joe Kelley that Jim McGuinn had given him the guitar. Could be total BS, but it did belong to Joe Kelley of The Shadows Of Knight. I don't know where the guitar is now. No one ever said Jim McGuinn played it, who knows? And I don't think it would make the guitar any more valuable because McGuinn gave it to him or that it belonged to the Shadows Of Knight. Now if Gloria had been recorded with the song, that might increase the value! One other cool thing, I saw The Byrds in '65 when they played at the Curling Club in Duluth, Minnesota. I stood right in front of McGuinn playing his original 360/12 through a Fender Dual Showman, it was fantastic.
A second local rock group which really looked outdated compared to The Byrds(greased back hair, etc.), played in between The Byrds two sets. After The Byrds took to the stage for their second set, I clearly remember Hillman 'borrowing'
the local guys Fender Precision bass for the whole second set. The Guild Starfire sat on the stand. This could be the night Hillman realized he liked Fenders better than Guilds. After this show I traded in my Rickenbacker 335 for a 360/12 and my brother bought a Guild Starfire bass. Those were the days!

[admin]

I hear you Larry, Thanks. I should have known better. Joe Kelley it is.

[rick12dr]

I have not seen that Shadows LP cover for a while,
but isn't Kelley listed as bassist on the LP? I sort of recall he and the guitarist[lead] listed on the LP back cover had actually switched their
instruments, that Kelley took the lead and the guitarist took over on bass.I'm not referring to McGeorge here.

[larrywassgren]

Joe Kelley is listed as lead guitarist on the back cover of the Gloria album. He was playing lead guitar the night I saw him back in '67, but Jerry McGeorge really stole the show for me. I remember Joe Kelley was not too into it that night, it seemed like he was not getting along with the others. It might have been just a bad night or a long ride up from Chicago!